Regarding the military thing: I agree, with reservations. Hessians and outcasts, okay. How friendly they are is an important point to think about, though. But the gaians? They're not fighting a war. A military alliance doesn't make sense when you're not fighting a war.
' Wrote:Anyway, back on topic:
What exactly are they losing? They don't lose their individuality as a faction at all, but they get the ability to fund themselves, instead of relying on the Green Front completely, and they get leverage in the larger view of what the Corsairs do to Bretonia. I don't see anything wrong with these things. The Hogosha and FA might be allied to the Corsairs, but neither of them are Sirius-Conquering pirates who are driven fully by greed, just like a Corsair clone. They're their own factions, why do we think the Gaians should react differently?
They don't get the ability to fund themselves, they get the ability to be funded by the corsairs. If you're a faction fighting for political change, what helps your stance more: an alliance with a very popular government lobbying group who wants the same thing as you, or a group or bloodthirsty pirates who want to kill everyone?
The Gaian's link with the Green Front helps them. Why would they want to get rid of it?
As for Hogosha and FA? I think the fact no one says "Hogosha" without saying "and FA" is proof enough of that one right now. Plus, not only are they allied with corsairs, and each other, they're also mired under alliances with Samura and the KNF. The emperor of Kusari is telling people to join the AFA and Hogosha in his sig :lol:. Right now, those two are pretty much just the result of adding their allies together.
Quote:Because by allying with the Corsairs, they actually lost their most important life line: Diamond smuggling. The Unioners are mostly terrorists, and so they don't do much piracy, from what I understand, and so without the diamonds from the Hessians to be smuggled back to Liberty, they lost their entire economy. That is why they're neutral.
The unioners part was actually a joke trying to highlight how ridiculous the alliance was, if it truly was based entirely on a dislike for bounty hunters.
But to use yr analogy, by allying with corsairs, don't the Order lose their entire purpose: Saving humanity?
' Wrote:...Though I can see why the Gaians might be interested in artifacts...they could lead to a solution for the whole terraforming problem (no idea how, but it's worth a shot, right?).
But the Corsairs are also short on food and Crete doesn't help that. Perhaps the scientific types among the Gaians are working on an ecofriendly solution to making food growth viable on Crete without breaking everything like terraforming does? That gives the Corsairs food (in theory), and the Gaians cut off potential terraforming before it happens. Perhaps the Corsairs then help supply the Gaians and/or trade them information about what is happening with Gaian enemies outside their usual ZoI?
The AFA and the gaians have been working closely together for awhile now, in roleplay meetings and the sort. I know that the factions do not represent the entirety of the factions in Disco- but that is how I saw things. The AFA and gaians moving towards a way to preserve farmland in the processs of farming. Now, this refining leads to a larger production of food allowing the farmers to compete with the synth food price attack.
This food, created by the farmers in Kusari with the alliance of the gaians is then used in trade with the Hogosha and the Corsair in a dealings of food and artifacts. I know the whole vanilla story is that corsairs bring shipments of artifacts up to Sigma-19 but with the growing GMG conflicts, Hogosha is having a hard time traversing through the sigmas. We've begun shipping food directly to Crete, bringing artifacts back ourselves.
At least, this is how I see things.
Hakatoa Yamota, Fuku-Honbucho in the Black Dragon Society
There are intended to be a considerable number of changes to various alliances in 4.86 (or perhaps even sooner). The changes, and some of the reasons for them are as follows:
Gaian - Corsair alliance: The Gaians are understandable extremely upset over the nuclear destruction of the once-habitable and pristine Planet Cork at the hands of the Corsairs, and it goes against everything they believe in. The Green Front have also insisted that they extricate themselves from their friendship with the Corsairs or they will cut all their funding and publicly denounce the Gaian Movement once and for all. The Gaians don't need much persuasion on this point, especially since the Corsairs are continually raiding their home turf in Cambridge anyway, and as such have decided that the Corsairs are no longer welcome in Bretonia space. To this end, their stance will most likely change from unfriendly to outright hostility.
Gaian - Mollys stance: It is likely that in the wake of their separation from the Corsairs, the Gaians will sign a neutrality agreement with the Molly miners. They have no bone to pick with each other, and the Mollys have no interest in exploiting Gaia or any other planets, as the Mollys simply want Dublin.
Molly - Outcast alliance: The Mollys, after the nuclear destruction of their planet and loss of nearly 50,000 people in the attack, realised that they really get very little out of their alliance with the Outcasts, not to mention that they hate Cardamine, and as such downgrade their status to neutral/friendly.
Molly - Hessian stance: Due to both of the groups being disinherited miners who are both struggling against the oppressions of their home governments and against the Corsair nation, and also being fairly close to one another, they will at some point sign an alliance treaty.
Hessian - Outcast alliance: Realising they get very little out of the alliance, and that they have absolutely nothing in common with the Outcasts beyond their hatred of the Corsairs, and that the Outcasts are continually pushing them to open up more Cardamine markets into Rheinland, they terminate the alliance although remain on neutral/friendly terms purely on Corsair-related matters.
Liberty Rogues - Outcast alliance: The Liberty Rogues have never been comfortable with the alliance, because it neutralizes any chances of profits smuggling artifacts and other goods from the Corsairs. To this end, they drop their alliance (which they never originally had anyway) and go back to being neutral with both the Corsairs and the Outcasts.
Lane Hackers and Golden Chrysanthemums will remain allied with the Outcasts.
Hogosha - Corsair alliance: The Hogosha are extremely isolationist (like FA, Samura and the Kusari government in general) and want no foreign influence in Kusari, especially unlawfuls because they want to control the entire black market by themselves. They are willing, however, to deal with the Corsairs outside of Kusari on the Hawaii, whereupon they pick up shipments of artifacts bound for other areas. To this end, there is no reason why they would have an alliance with the Edge World gaijin scum, as they certainly do not need an alliance to do business. They therefore will revert to neutral/friendly.
Farmers Alliance - Corsair alliance: For similar reasons as above, the Farmers are extremely nationalistic and isolationist and do not tolerate any foreign attempts to expand into Kusari. They are mainly concentrated on stopping Synth Foods and their own attempts to solve Kusari's food problems. They therefore remain allied with the Hogosha but move to be neutral to the Corsairs.
Order - Corsair alliance: Ah, well here's the tricky one. The Order should (and would never) have needed an alliance with the Corsairs. The Order is known in full as the Order of Cincinattus (although this full title is known to very, very few), and was formed in secret by high ranking Liberty politicians, scientists, naval personnel and corporate CEOs in 20 A.S. The Order is largely funded by black ops funding from Liberty, smuggled out through Order agents and contacts, including former-President and current Senator Barbara Jacobi, Senator Harrigan and Senator Mitchell. The Order obtains much of its technology, weapons and funding from clandestine meetings with Liberty Navy admirals "in-the-know", and through the Blood Dragons and the Zoners who also produce a number of fighters and supply recruits for the organisation. A large amount of their supplies are donated from idealogical organisations and other sources.
Order agents teaching at West Point Academy (of which Jun'Ko Zane is currently an instructor) keep tabs on potential trainees who may be contacted later for recruitment into the Order. They also obtain a steady stream of recruits from most other organisations, including even the Corsairs (those idealistic few who want to protect humanity instead of destroy it). While officially a terrorist organisation, the Liberty Navy is never allowed to openly engage the Order or even do any real damage to the organisation.
As for the Liberty Security Force, it was actually founded *BY* the Order and its top ranking members within Liberty for the express purpose of being a public organisation that can operate in the open for the safety of Liberty. This is of course largely unknown to anyone except the very, very top members who are also Order agents. Officially hostile, they too are not allowed to engage the Order too much. There's a problem with the BHG, which is why the LSF rein in their activities against the Order from time to time, but there is little that they can do against the Guild at present and the Order must deal with that issue by themselves.
Planet Toledo is having a new infocard implemented very soon (next auto-update most likely), as well as a number of new rumours for the Order detailing the background of the Order and several upcoming changes.
Sorry for the lengthy post, but I thought it was a good idea to share this with you. Feel free to comment, make suggestions, criticise (constructively!), and all that kind of thing.
' Wrote:Regarding the military thing: I agree, with reservations. Hessians and outcasts, okay. How friendly they are is an important point to think about, though. But the gaians? They're not fighting a war. A military alliance doesn't make sense when you're not fighting a war.
They don't get the ability to fund themselves, they get the ability to be funded by the corsairs. If you're a faction fighting for political change, what helps your stance more: an alliance with a very popular government lobbying group who wants the same thing as you, or a group or bloodthirsty pirates who want to kill everyone?
The Gaian's link with the Green Front helps them. Why would they want to get rid of it?
The better question is, why wouldn't they have their cake and eat it too? Just like it isn't public knowledge that the FA and Hogosha pirate people while the KNF/KSP turn a blind eye, it doesn't have to be common knowledge that the Gaians are getting help from the Corsairs. The people who are close to the Gaians know, and if they are still so fervent to help Gaia, they will believe that the cause still has merit, and stick with it, those who do not will withdraw their funding, at which point the artifact smuggling will come into play.
On another note, what is saying that the Gaians aren't bribing some Cambridge professors with artifacts from the Corsairs? That might turn more than a few eyes on the planet...
' Wrote:As for Hogosha and FA? I think the fact no one says "Hogosha" without saying "and FA" is proof enough of that one right now. Plus, not only are they allied with corsairs, and each other, they're also mired under alliances with Samura and the KNF. The emperor of Kusari is telling people to join the AFA and Hogosha in his sig :lol:. Right now, those two are pretty much just the result of adding their allies together.
I meant how the Corsairs have affected them, which is very little. They are close allies, and they have many of the same activities, yes, but, there are large differences between the FA and the Hogosha. They seem subtle, because they hardly come up ingame, however, they are a large part of the respective factions' RPs.
' Wrote:The AFA and the gaians have been working closely together for awhile now, in roleplay meetings and the sort. I know that the factions do not represent the entirety of the factions in Disco- but that is how I saw things. The AFA and gaians moving towards a way to preserve farmland in the processs of farming. Now, this refining leads to a larger production of food allowing the farmers to compete with the synth food price attack.
Oooh! I've wanted to say this forever!
The Gaians wouldn't like Synth Foods for one simple reason: They have destroyed the natural ecosystem of Planet Stuttgart. Many of the old farms are now failing because of the terraforming gases and heavy fertilizers pumped into the planet. The atmosphere is no longer the same combustible, firestorm-waiting-to-happen furball it once was and the ground is no longer the same composition it was. I do think a group of Cambridge Scientists would find out about this eventually, and be appalled...
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
Quote:Hogosha - Corsair alliance: The Hogosha are extremely isolationist (like FA, Samura and the Kusari government in general) and want no foreign influence in Kusari, especially unlawfuls because they want to control the entire black market by themselves. They are willing, however, to deal with the Corsairs outside of Kusari on the Hawaii, whereupon they pick up shipments of artifacts bound for other areas. To this end, there is no reason why they would have an alliance with the Edge World gaijin scum, as they certainly do not need an alliance to do business. They therefore will revert to neutral/friendly.
Quote:Farmers Alliance - Corsair alliance: For similar reasons as above, the Farmers are extremely nationalistic and isolationist and do not tolerate any foreign attempts to expand into Kusari. They are mainly concentrated on stopping Synth Foods and their own attempts to solve Kusari's food problems. They therefore remain allied with the Hogosha but move to be neutral to the Corsairs.
I think the Hogosha Corsair allaince mainly stems from the fact that most corsairs stay out of Kusari. Outside of the sigmas- where we now WANT the corsairs to be, provoking GMG, we do hold a much needed business. This is the mainstay of the Hogosha's black market. While we don't want them in Kusari, we do deal with them frequently, and an alliance has been created. We rely HEAVILY on the corsairs military support and we have begun dealing with them in person on the borderworlds, as GMG have been making Hawaii a difficult place to get to. With the advent of the Okinawa system, the GMG would rather drop dead before letting Hogosha freely travel to the luxery liner. We are also beginning to roleplay an exchange for the use of one of their gunboats- something the corsairs would not easily do without an understanding alliance. Out of most of the dealings I've had with in Kusari with corsair pirates, they were all to happy to move outside of the main Kusari systems to pirate in order to remain outside the detection of the KNF/KSP. We have a good understanding in our business dealings.. Maybe not so much for an alliance, but for the exchange of a large amount of goods. Not only that, but the corsair conflict with the outcast redirect outcast forces from their business in Kusari instead onto the corsairs.
Although the farmer/corsair alliance isn't as strong, we do get the food to trade from somewhere.. And as people already mentioned.. It's difficult to say Hogosha, without saying farmers :S Although one are samura's hired goons, and the other pretty much have their hand in everyones pie. I'm hoping you are able to decide which is which.
One thing I wondered, was the Blood Dragons alliance with the outcasts.. It seems they merely put up with them because of the GC. I thought they hated the cardimine drug just as much as we do, but out of necessity put up with it in order to maintain their relations with the GC. Other than that, they would just as much enjoy seeing the drug stay OUT of kusari.
Hakatoa Yamota, Fuku-Honbucho in the Black Dragon Society
' Wrote:One thing I wondered, was the Blood Dragons alliance with the outcasts.. It seems they merely put up with them because of the GC. I thought they hated the cardimine drug just as much as we do, but out of necessity put up with it in order to maintain their relations with the GC. Other than that, they would just as much enjoy seeing the drug stay OUT of kusari.
That's been fixed already. The Blood Dragons now regard the Outcasts with a reddish neutral to unfriendly stance.
' Wrote:There are intended to be a considerable number of changes to various alliances in 4.86 (or perhaps even sooner). The changes, and some of the reasons for them are as follows:
Gaian - Corsair alliance: The Gaians are understandable extremely upset over the nuclear destruction of the once-habitable and pristine Planet Cork at the hands of the Corsairs, and it goes against everything they believe in. The Green Front have also insisted that they extricate themselves from their friendship with the Corsairs or they will cut all their funding and publicly denounce the Gaian Movement once and for all. The Gaians don't need much persuasion on this point, especially since the Corsairs are continually raiding their home turf in Cambridge anyway, and as such have decided that the Corsairs are no longer welcome in Bretonia space. To this end, their stance will most likely change from unfriendly to outright hostility.
Gaian - Mollys stance: It is likely that in the wake of their separation from the Corsairs, the Gaians will sign a neutrality agreement with the Molly miners. They have no bone to pick with each other, and the Mollys have no interest in exploiting Gaia or any other planets, as the Mollys simply want Dublin.
Molly - Outcast alliance: The Mollys, after the nuclear destruction of their planet and loss of nearly 50,000 people in the attack, realised that they really get very little out of their alliance with the Outcasts, not to mention that they hate Cardamine, and as such downgrade their status to neutral/friendly.
Molly - Hessian stance: Due to both of the groups being disinherited miners who are both struggling against the oppressions of their home governments and against the Corsair nation, and also being fairly close to one another, they will at some point sign an alliance treaty.
Hessian - Outcast alliance: Realising they get very little out of the alliance, and that they have absolutely nothing in common with the Outcasts beyond their hatred of the Corsairs, and that the Outcasts are continually pushing them to open up more Cardamine markets into Rheinland, they terminate the alliance although remain on neutral/friendly terms purely on Corsair-related matters.
Liberty Rogues - Outcast alliance: The Liberty Rogues have never been comfortable with the alliance, because it neutralizes any chances of profits smuggling artifacts and other goods from the Corsairs. To this end, they drop their alliance (which they never originally had anyway) and go back to being neutral with both the Corsairs and the Outcasts.
Lane Hackers and Golden Chrysanthemums will remain allied with the Outcasts.
Hogosha - Corsair alliance: The Hogosha are extremely isolationist (like FA, Samura and the Kusari government in general) and want no foreign influence in Kusari, especially unlawfuls because they want to control the entire black market by themselves. They are willing, however, to deal with the Corsairs outside of Kusari on the Hawaii, whereupon they pick up shipments of artifacts bound for other areas. To this end, there is no reason why they would have an alliance with the Edge World gaijin scum, as they certainly do not need an alliance to do business. They therefore will revert to neutral/friendly.
Farmers Alliance - Corsair alliance: For similar reasons as above, the Farmers are extremely nationalistic and isolationist and do not tolerate any foreign attempts to expand into Kusari. They are mainly concentrated on stopping Synth Foods and their own attempts to solve Kusari's food problems. They therefore remain allied with the Hogosha but move to be neutral to the Corsairs.
Order - Corsair alliance: Ah, well here's the tricky one. The Order should (and would never) have needed an alliance with the Corsairs. The Order is known in full as the Order of Cincinattus (although this full title is known to very, very few), and was formed in secret by high ranking Liberty politicians, scientists, naval personnel and corporate CEOs in 20 A.S. The Order is largely funded by black ops funding from Liberty, smuggled out through Order agents and contacts, including former-President and current Senator Barbara Jacobi, Senator Harrigan and Senator Mitchell. The Order obtains much of its technology, weapons and funding from clandestine meetings with Liberty Navy admirals "in-the-know", and through the Blood Dragons and the Zoners who also produce a number of fighters and supply recruits for the organisation. A large amount of their supplies are donated from idealogical organisations and other sources.
Order agents teaching at West Point Academy (of which Jun'Ko Zane is currently an instructor) keep tabs on potential trainees who may be contacted later for recruitment into the Order. They also obtain a steady stream of recruits from most other organisations, including even the Corsairs (those idealistic few who want to protect humanity instead of destroy it). While officially a terrorist organisation, the Liberty Navy is never allowed to openly engage the Order or even do any real damage to the organisation.
As for the Liberty Security Force, it was actually founded *BY* the Order and its top ranking members within Liberty for the express purpose of being a public organisation that can operate in the open for the safety of Liberty. This is of course largely unknown to anyone except the very, very top members who are also Order agents. Officially hostile, they too are not allowed to engage the Order too much. There's a problem with the BHG, which is why the LSF rein in their activities against the Order from time to time, but there is little that they can do against the Guild at present and the Order must deal with that issue by themselves.
Planet Toledo is having a new infocard implemented very soon (next auto-update most likely), as well as a number of new rumours for the Order detailing the background of the Order and several upcoming changes.
Sorry for the lengthy post, but I thought it was a good idea to share this with you. Feel free to comment, make suggestions, criticise (constructively!), and all that kind of thing.
To the hogosha / farmer alliance and corsairs diplomacy changes, could I give my disagreements ?
Where are the artifacts coming from ? Gamma of course where else.
So the problem with that ideas is since the artifacts are the main products running on the black market, stopping the corsair relations would kill the black market and then there would be 2 choices : hogoshas + farmers falls into a war for the artifacts against the corsairs (a war they would lose) or disappear.
The corsairs are not welcome in kusary but it's to avoid to break the tolerance of KNF about hogosha + farmers. Nevertheless, an alliance on artifact black market is needed. The corsairs won't be carrying the artifacts by their own in sigmas without an alliance.
Also, I'm surprised the KNF and the corsairs didn't took any contacts since they could coordinate their attacks against bretonia.
About the LR thing ... after I saw a post about the SP mod having so much differences with disco mod (particularly concerning the artifacts), I was wondering why disco came to that.
RHA - OC : If KNF - Corsair don't exists, why RHA - OC would ? (I think there is in fact a choice in it)
Gaian : Well I see them as the xenos in liberty. Just the disco alliance with corsairs was an opportunity to have the adapted technology.
Orders : Play SP mod again, why the hell are keepers neutral to outcasts ? why the hell are orders allied with the worst enemies of the one they worked with before ? I may missed something but, well something is wrong.
And about LSF and order relations, well that's something I didn't expected really. The LSF is lying to anything they can ! Watch out ! They could even work for the rogues:D
' Wrote:Liberty Rogues - Outcast alliance: The Liberty Rogues have never been comfortable with the alliance, because it neutralizes any chances of profits smuggling artifacts and other goods from the Corsairs. To this end, they drop their alliance (which they never originally had anyway) and go back to being neutral with both the Corsairs and the Outcasts.
"because it neutralizes any chances of profits smuggling artifacts"
-uh, how? Artifacts are getting into Liberty very indirectly. From the Hogosha, Lane Hackers on Leiden and eventually Rogues who smuggle them across Colorado. There are no Outcasts in those systems, there are no Outcasts north from Badlands, actually. Even then, Artifacts are Alien Artifacts, not Corsair Artifacts. It's like saying that the borderworlds shipline is Outcast. Some Artifacts might originate from Pygar in Theta, or other excavation sites around Sirius. And you don't get addicted to Artifacts, unlike Cardamine. Reverting to vanilla relations where Rogues are neutral to Corsairs because they would never meet - well, I don't see how that matters. Rogues were allied to the Outcasts because smuggling Cardamine from California, Texas and Buffalo across New York to Rochester or Manhattan is not easy, but still pays off. Truth is that the Rogues always wanted that to change and "run the business themselves one day". I guess they can try and we'll see what happens - might be interesting.
What I wouldn't like: Rogues allowing Corsairs to dock on their bases in Liberty. Why? Well, it would be the same as with Outcasts before. Rogues get low (if any) gain from the trade.
But that's the problem of Corsair players en-masse ignoring the fact that they don't have a Sirius-wide ZoI. It's not a problem of faction diplomacy. Lane Hackers were neutral to Corsairs in 800 A.S. - and it wasn't a problem, since they would never meet. However, with the Corsair aggressive moves (mentioned by Igiss and demonstrated by players, too), the Hackers would pick sides, I bet. They're not Outcast puppets, but Corsair invasion into Liberty space serves no one.
Perhaps the Corsair ZoI should get mentioned in their ID. "escorting their smugglers to Liberty" is actually against their interests, since it would make the smuggler a target. If Corsairs want access to Liberty, they should fight for it first. But right now Corsairs seem to be more concerned with killing each other and sitting around the Omicron systems, with the occasional raid into Bretonia. (question is to what extent (and if at all) player behavior and events actually influence the storyline or vice versa).
' Wrote:To the hogosha / farmer alliance and corsairs diplomacy changes, could I give my disagreements ?
Where are the artifacts coming from ? Gamma of course where else.
So the problem with that ideas is since the artifacts are the main products running on the black market, stopping the corsair relations would kill the black market and then there would be 2 choices : hogoshas + farmers falls into a war for the artifacts against the corsairs (a war they would lose) or disappear.
The corsairs are not welcome in kusary but it's to avoid to break the tolerance of KNF about hogosha + farmers. Nevertheless, an alliance on artifact black market is needed. The corsairs won't be carrying the artifacts by their own in sigmas without an alliance.
Cardamine and blood diamond trades work just fine with neutral/friendly factions, why would the corsairs need an alliance? Junkers aren't allied with anyone but they are the final link in every smuggling chain outside of Kusari.
' Wrote:Cardamine and blood diamond trades work just fine with neutral/friendly factions, why would the corsairs need an alliance? Junkers aren't allied with anyone but they are the final link in every smuggling chain outside of Kusari.
The alliance could also work as a formality, for the Hogosha to be allowed to use their equipment. Unless the faction charts remained the same, it's difficult for the Hogosha to justify the use of 1-2 corsair weapons, and even a corsair gunboat in the rarest of occurances. I don't think the situation is exactly the same as the cardamine and blood daimond trade. Like all comparisons there are correlations, but no two comparisons are exact. We deal with the corsairs for artifacts, and military assets in order to maintain our control on the market- maybe not the grounds for an alliance, but an increased level of understanding between the two factions. And if not for this reason- than simply as a formality for the use of corsair technology on the hogosha behalf.
Hakatoa Yamota, Fuku-Honbucho in the Black Dragon Society