It is inevitable that the Gaians will lose public support, even if they weren't friendly with Kusari. Why? Because Bretonia is losing the war. Because the Gaians are attacking Bretonians , they will be seen as hurting the Bretonian cause no matter their affiliation with Kusari forces. So for the Gaians, why not reap the benefits of allying with the Kusari, while suffering much the same consequences that they would have suffered anyways?
As for the Green Front, it is likely that their support will slack off too, as more people concern themselves with personal safety over saving the environment. For the Green Front's stance on the war, they're probably siding with the people that want Bretonia to sue for peace immediately, and are willing to take a "defeat" to stop the bloodshed. In any case, financial donations and other fundraising will probably suffer because of the war, so the Green Front will be able to send less money to the Gaians.
Combined, what does this mean? This means that with financial support from the Green Front slacking, the Gaians might turn to their Kusari allies for support, both monetarily and equipment-wise. Yes, the public image of the Gaians will suffer (and the image of the Green front will suffer too, just not as much) but it's the choice between getting no gain and some loss, or quite a bit of gain and a little bit more loss.
' Wrote:These are scientists, and this is the future, ever thought there might be scientific reasons behind it too?
I haven't seen any evidence of any scientific reasons. I haven't even seen any theories of possible explanations how the terraforming of a planet would affect the ecology of a planet hundreds of millions of kilometers away. Just saying that it does, and it's been proven that it does in Freelancer, but we don't know how because our current scientific knowledge doesn't even begin to understand it, is a cop out.
@Hawkwings: It could be, but any explanations of why they believe in that intrinsic value will come across sounding quasi-religious. At least, all the ones I've heard have.
Edit: About the Green Front, I see their more vocal members getting arrested for 'questioning', and staying in a legal limbo for a long, long time. Think the Patriot Act. Ugh.
' Wrote:OK, addressing this more complicated issue...
It is inevitable that the Gaians will lose public support, even if they weren't friendly with Kusari. Why? Because Bretonia is losing the war. Because the Gaians are attacking Bretonians , they will be seen as hurting the Bretonian cause no matter their affiliation with Kusari forces.
This is actually a pretty decent point.
Then again, the other option works too (as in, fighting on the same side as your house), that way, you keep the public support, even increase it, whilst losing the alliances. So don't feel like you're being pushed into the kusari thing.
All the changes we players propose is ultimately accepted/rejected by Igiss, & until/unless he flat out says the root of the GF-Gaian relationship has to change according to the ultimate base story he has in mind, I am going to continue to simply work with trying to expand what is already there.
That means weither I or anyone else likes it or not, Gaians currently have to deal with being allied w/ the Sairs...they have allies in kusari, & they have a lobbying group that garners some public sympathy for the faction.
As far as the proposed changes in Bretonia, I fully agree the place needs much love & I have no issues with any proposals to upgrade the place...except for edinburgh. I've voiced my objections over the edin proposal a few times & was ignored because of all our mutual clashing hubris. I'm in the minority & realized I was wasting my time...but I've lightened up quite abit since last week after I learned that right now the proposals are little more than a basic wish list.
& @Drake: basically, ok... if you say it sounds alot like religion, then fine, believe whatever you like. Even though I've never seen a gaian player ever RP anything remotely religious, if it will break the circular debate about it then ok, if you say so, it must be true...you're wrong, but you win.
Drake: the point of something having intrinsic value is that it doesn't need an explanation. It simply is valuable (to some people).
Benjamin: you mean like the Mollies, right? I see the Gaians primary goal as crushing Planetform, and the whole Bretonia/Kusari war is secondary to that. Now, even though it is secondary, it's such an important thing that the Gaians have to take a position on it. If they chose to side with Bretonia, they would be indirectly(or maybe even directly) helping Planetform, while if they chose to side with Kusari, they would be indirectly hurting Planetform, and continue to directly hurt Planetform. The Kusari alliance fits with their primary goal better, in this case.
Thinking more about this, there really is one bit of an oddity. That is, discussing public support of a group that routinely blows up things and hurts people.
I think it would be better to talk about public support of the Green Front rather than the Gaians, as the former would be the one getting it. From there they would, of course, use their resources to help the latter. But I don't think the Gaians themselves can decrease their possible support any more, or increase it all that much even.
From another perspective, I could see the war leading to more Gaians even. If it's a group that's basically not caring about the outcome of the war, which they don't, in my opinion, there is certainly a group of "I don't give a damn"-ists who would support them. On the other side, the patriotic types will probably dislike them regardless.
But then I still see a good deal of difference between being friendly with the FA, a civilian group, and supporting the Kusari government. And even then, is the line being drawn at political friendships, economic friendships, or strategic friendships? As an example, the GC and Dragons aren't friends because of their politics but because of economics and strategy. The Bundschuh dislike the Rheinland government, but they'll work together against a common foe. I didn't think the Rogues particularly cared for the Outcasts, but they bring them in enough money that it's a good deal.
The Gaians and FA have a good deal of mutual interests, but I also don't think they'd see eye to eye on politics. As to possible Gaian-Hogosha interactions, I think it would be business-like at the most - the Hogosha deal with the Corsairs (who the Gaians are going to be unfriendly with, assuming that's true) on an OSC liner. That's surely a turn off there, but if they offer enough in return, business type alliances can certainly work.
So what happens when the Gaians work with some Kusari but don't necessarily support their politics? Based on the locations of where they generally do, I'd say the Gaians would lose support in Leeds and possibly New London, but Cambridge, their stronghold of public support, would never see any cooperation. So overall, I think it would end up being mixed - their areas of strong support stay strong, their areas of weak support taper off further.
The Hogosha can stengthen their ties with the Gaians by directing them towards the Sigmas - where the GMG has terraforming operations in place.
That is, if the Gaians are looking to spread their wings and be a more general terrorist group - striking to Cali Minor and Curacao as well.
They can move away from major house politics - as well as the Corsairs - and focus on their 'core business'. They could keep their alliances with the Hogosha and FA - and maybe strike a deal with the Hackers to get close to Liberty.
And dont forget Gallia! The Gaians are right on their doorstep, and have a chance to 'spread the word' and stop the infiltration of superior terraforming technology into Gallia.
My ex-Gallic Gaian Fleur led some of the NLH on a scout mission in there the other day - to take readings of Planet Vienne. more of these missions might give the Gaians a chance to interact with emerging Gallic factions to assess eventual faction status.
' Wrote:The Hogosha can stengthen their ties with the Gaians by directing them towards the Sigmas - where the GMG has terraforming operations in place.
That is, if the Gaians are looking to spread their wings and be a more general terrorist group - striking to Cali Minor and Curacao as well.
They can move away from major house politics - as well as the Corsairs - and focus on their 'core business'. They could keep their alliances with the Hogosha and FA - and maybe strike a deal with the Hackers to get close to Liberty.
...
I'd definitely like that, but I believe we're holding off on such endeavors until things get cleared up. Mainly since certain people really seem to dislike the idea of Gaians outside of Bretonia...
the problem with the gaians is that the game mechanics don t allow for much more interaction than to threaten or blow someone up.
if the gaians were a faction in a game that would allow all sorts of tactics. - the gaians would be terrorists indeed. but a terrorist is not NECESSARILY someone that kills. - terrorizing means to have a very detrimental effect on something.
gaians started terrorizing orbital spa and cruise - ... that does NOT mean that they shot down liners, killing hundreds of people. - they terrorized them by making their "vacation" trip as uncomfortable as possible. - destroying com systems so no communication was available, slowing down the progression of the ship, - shaking the ship around.
it doesn t take too much - untill a tourist business is in trouble cause its customers had a very bad vacation. sometimes it only takes a disfunct toilet. - or protesters that annoy you when you wanne have rest and peace. - and all that doesn t kill.
so if game mechanics would allow, - gaians would rather have a "slow" beam or something that would force a liner / transport into a crawl speed without cruise. - why kill someone when you can make sure that he won t reach his destination in time.... in days.
personally, i always thought of the gaians ( the original ones ) as some sort of terrorists that were not after killing people but after making themselves heard. - topics like enviroment are even these days hard to get into the actual political business - and it takes a "wake up call" for them to be discussed ( a disaster for example ... or... even better... an occation that costs the operators a lot of money )
so the original gaians would have terrorized people exploiting gaia by making their life hard. ... so hard that those that employ these people would have problems getting more workers.
for me - it is rather like that. when you make life for the people hard, - the law has trouble fighting you, cause when they kill you - you become a martyr. - when YOU however start killing innocents... the law can kill you and you won t become a martyr ... at least not that easily.
but does that apply to gaians today? - i m not sure about that. - gaians are for quite some part a sesspool of criminals. - they are probably less idealistic than mollys, who have very exact plans about what they do and what they want to achieve. - the idea of gaians is rather a vague one anyway. - politicly questionable anyway.
gaians are - imo - typical complainers. they complain about something - but haven t really thought it all out to the very end. - if life must evolve as it comes... then human life exploiting a planet is a behaviour that has evolved... as it comes, too. hanceforth its against the idea to let every species evolve the way it sees fit best. the only solution would be to get rid of humans as a whole, which would then as well be an incursion into the evolution of species.
but its easy to commit a crime in the cause of the gaians. - you have the "good" ones and the "bad" ones. - as long as you don t think too hard about who the good and bad ones are, - you re fine. - and many criminals wouldn t want to think about such philosophical questions anyway - cause its like asking yourself "is it right or wrong?"
about gaian evolution, i d like to see a real evolution actually. - what aims do fit the disco enviroment and can also be RPed ingame. protecting gaia is nice - but not enough. even the liberty rogues have risen to something greater.... and i could justify even the xenos more than the gaians.
when i was involved in a real discussion about why i go violent - gaians are about the least faction i d like to represent - their cuase just has too many holes. - they re good enough for a small NPC faction, but not good enough for a playerfaction.
Jinx makes some good points (as usual) - the non pirate type unlawfuls should be doing plenty more things that aren't able to be done. Building on his comments, I think a great tactic would be for Gaians to sneak some rotting seafood into the airvents/circulation system of the Shetland. :laugh:
Quote: when i was involved in a real discussion about why i go violent - gaians are about the least faction i d like to represent - their cuase just has too many holes. - they re good enough for a small NPC faction, but not good enough for a playerfaction.
And thus I think we need to find a way to patch the holes - perhaps some eco-friendly duct tape!
Or how about really defining roles. Or making the Gaians extra-national and unconcerned with politics officially. Sure they have governmental support in Cambridge, but what if they got a station or two away from, but near enough, to Bretonia to spread their message? Throw a station in California to let them hit Cali Minor and bring them up against the Liberty Rogues (trespassing without giving them a cut) and Xenos (they're taking the terrorist jobs now!). Plus if they're tangling a lot with the criminals of Liberty, what would they do for their reputation as terrorists?
Or what about a base in Sigma-19? They have plenty of enemies there - Kurile, the Hawaii, and, soon, Okinawa (preemptive strike at gate traffic perhaps?) The cloud by the 17 JH would work for that. Plus the Corsairs in the area (interdiction of artifact traffic for study! How interesting of a dynamic could that bring?).
I dunno, I'm in a thinking outside the box sort of mood today.
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