Paladin Balance Discussion

[Xing]

alright. I dont know WHY its so big, but, see, the cockpit of the Paladin is supposed to be about the same size as that of the Cavalier. Which would reduce it's size quite a bit.

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[BaconSoda]

If those are really the sizes, I don't think a small size reduction could really hurt. At the moment, the Paladin is just as big, if not bigger, from the front, just as wide, and only a tick smaller than the Templar. That would make it a rather large ship that was meant to fill a niche between the Templar and the Hussar, wouldn't it?

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[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.

[pipsqueak]

Frankly,

Looking at the sizes, I expected this elite fighter to be a SHF.
If not that, some thing like a gladiator with one cd and onr torp.

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[McNeo]

Frankly,

Having fought the things in a Chimeara, Titan and Correo, I think it's fine. Its a zippy bugger, which is really all that matters. I mean, if you don't agree, then I can point you to the Centurion and the Hammerhead, both of which are huge, yet fine.

Then again, if you look at my sig, and say to yourself "bias much?" then I wouldn't contest that.

[Andrew_Bonesovich]

I fly one, and it works quite well, at least in group fights. I wouldnt take it to duel someone though, but as mentioned before, its not its purpose.

Only thing I would change is the armor (hull if you want) by adding 1000 more hp . It -almost- dies to one mini razor (its left with 2000 hp roughly, which equals few shots from average 9 class gun). When I fought gaian eagles with it, I was constantly in fear of being annihilated by their razor spam (by outturning me they didnt have problems hitting shields until Ive gone fully evasive)

The Gladiator, for example, is small from most sides (huge from above and under only) and has around 9500 hull (sorry, cant remember the numbers exactly) - not mentioning its 10class slots but thats another story

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A criminal always returns to the crime scene.

[Unseelie]

I'm not entirely satisfied with the suggestion that this ship's balance is that its better in group fights (even if that argument is valid) is really a reasonable way to balance a ship. The suggestion that a ship is harder to hit in furballs...when, most likely, the ship you're shooting at has gone totally evasive...Well, then, it doesn't make that ship all that great in a fight, its a purely evasive ship(which I contest).

Furthermore, the discussion that the Templar's bretonian ball shape makes it hard to hit in a furbal, I'd like to point out, ignores the fact that its ball shape actually makes it very easy to hit in a single fight(again, totally evasive). These ships are good at going totally evasive. That much the same as running away, and similar to the case of running away, which means they're good at not dying. Not Dying doesn't mean they are good at winning, which is really what balance is about, yes? They're good ships for dragging things out. Yay.

Sure, get a couple of friends, and if you keep shooting the one you can't hit, you're not going to do well.

Anyway, the point about the Paladin being hard to hit because it follows the Templar's shape...Well, from looking at the ship comparisons, the Paladin has much more hittable area than the Templar, and doesn't particularly follow a ball shape.

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[mjolnir]

This discussion is not about Templar.

OMG LOOK AT THE SIZE doesn't add much to the discussion either. There are many ships that are much bigger/smaller than others yet in real fight they are not "uber" or "suck" compared with them. Sometimes they are better at some things and worse at others.

The "problem" that you brought up here merely comes from you looking at (incomplete) numbers and deciding it's wrong, it does not seem to be supported by any real fight results. As long as there's no real evidence of Paladin being "wrong" in fights (test or real ones) and as long as 3 of the Balance team members (2 of them "Bretonian") are telling me that "it might be too fast" I don't see any reason to do some changes.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Unseelie]

Is the only thing the Paladin is better at than the eagle turn acceleration?

This is the original (and continuing) question posed in this thread.
Mjolnir replied that there were other numbers, which Mjolnir then failed to produce, and no one else has produced either. Without those numbers, and then an explanation of those numbers, thats not at all helpful, it is in fact a dodge of my question. I'm not trying to raise allegations that its unbalanced, I came in trying to find out how it was balanced, ergo, with the belief that it was, in fact, balanced. I'm not really asking for changes. I'm asking for someone, and since Mjolnir keeps telling me I'm doing things wrong, I'm very much looking at him, to explain to me the ups and downs of this ship. So far, I've gotten:

(talking about how its shape makes it better)

The easy to hit Bretonian ball shape that makes Templar one of the 2 most hard to hit VHFs outside 1vs1? :wacko:

Oh, also, thats quite exactly where the idea that it was at all related to the templar came from. Mjolnir brought it up.

(On the idea that its too big)

alright. I dont know WHY its so big, but, see, the cockpit of the Paladin is supposed to be about the same size as that of the Cavalier. Which would reduce it's size quite a bit.

I -told- you people, size it down, it wont kill the ship!

As mentioned before, check a few things before comparing the two. For reasons unknown the Paladin is larger than a Challenger. Ergo it fails.

(on the idea that its not supposed to do well in 1v1.)

Mjolnir is correct. HFs are not meant to be mainstay fighter craft. They're support dogfighters.

I fly one, and it works quite well, at least in group fights. I wouldn't take it to duel someone though, but as mentioned before, its not its purpose.

In conclusion, I've gathered that the balancing factor of this ship is that its good at not being killed in large fights. I then contended that at least one of the reasons put forward for it being so good was at least a little bit wrong, and then I wondered why, exactly, the big fights thing even counted.

So, again, I'm going to ask my question. How, if there even is another reason, is the Paladin balanced against the Eagle, other than the suggestion that it can dodge better in furballs?
Again, not looking for any changes, just an account of the balance plan.

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[Andrew_Bonesovich]

There are many ships that are much bigger/smaller than others yet in real fight they are not "uber" or "suck" compared with them. Sometimes they are better at some things and worse at others.

Then tell me, what is the advantage of Paladin?

Manueverability? Its almost the same as other HFs we usually fight (I dont look at numbers, game experience > numbers, imo)

Firepower? It has 2x8 and 4x9 class slots. With its powerplant, no big deal, really. Only way to do any good damage is mounting a mini razor, which makes your small powerplant cry.

Survivalability? 8600 hull and size of a Templar. Average.

If I forgot anything, tell me.

Your last sentence dont fully apply on this. Paladin is worse/average in everything.

EDIT:

In conclusion, I've gathered that the balancing factor of this ship is that its good at not being killed in large fights. I then contended that at least one of the reasons put forward for it being so good was at least a little bit wrong, and then I wondered why, exactly, the big fights thing even counted.

The reason why its not getting killed in large fights is that everyone sees a HF and thinks "Omfg, HFs are fast arent they? Target somethin' huge!", ergo they target Templars first, if they would target Paladin, they would be surprised how fast it can die to a swarm of HFs/VHFs, even when dodging.

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A criminal always returns to the crime scene.

[mjolnir]

Mjolnir replied that there were other numbers, which Mjolnir then failed to produce, and no one else has produced either. Without those numbers, and then an explanation of those numbers, thats not at all helpful, it is in fact a dodge of my question.

You were told which numbers to look for as well as explanation (if you followed the link I posted). I don't see why I should "produce" numbers, when it was you that started with assumptions based on wrong ones.

Paladin:
150 51500 51500 160000 41000 41000 118000 1.2561 1.2561 1.3559 7600 7600 7000 6.78 6.78 22.86 8600

Eagle:
150 53500 53500 46700 41000 41000 35000 1.3049 1.3049 1.3343 8400 8400 2000 6.37 6.37 23.35 9200

Comparison picture:

Manueverability? Its almost the same as other HFs we usually fight (I dont look at numbers, game experience > numbers, imo)

HFs you fight? Only HF you might fight are Gladiator and Centurion. It is much faster than Gladiator, slower than Centurion.

It's much faster than Chimaera, Werewolf or Greyhound which are not HFs anyway.

Firepower? It has 2x8 and 4x9 class slots. With its powerplant, no big deal, really. Only way to do any good damage is mounting a mini razor, which makes your small powerplant cry.

= standard HF powerplant

Survivalability? 8600 hull and size of a Templar. Average.

Slightly above average in the HF class.

The reason why its not getting killed in large fights is that everyone sees a HF and thinks "Omfg, HFs are fast arent they? Target somethin' huge!", ergo they target Templars first, if they would target Paladin, they would be surprised how fast it can die to a swarm of HFs/VHFs, even when dodging.

I have fought it enough times.. I have seen one dodging 2 Wyrms and 1 Chimaera without getting hull damage and another one dodging 2 Chimaeras, 2 Kusari Bombers and 2 Vipers without getting hull damage.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.