Especially in group fights, you have people on your side who don't know how to fight bombers... And you get punished for it when he gets SNACed AND fills up the other team with regens.
It's not that big of a deal 1v1, but consider this:
In Omicron Kappa a while back, I went there on my falcata to buy a SNAC. I got jumped by 9, yes, 9 corsairs. Titans, Talons, Praetorians, etc.
Funny thing is, I won. At the end of the fight, I still had 60 bots left, because everytime I was about to die, I ended up SNACing someone and getting full regens.
Now, no matter HOW badly they piloted, if I was in a fighter, I wouldn't be able to stand up to even 4 of them.
That clearly says something is wrong with the SNAC balance, and if you don't think so, then I'm thinking you're just afraid to lose your uber blue-message generator.
EDIT: Also, this is about the SNAC being used against FIGHTERS. Leave the anti-cap comments aside. I really don't see a logic behind an anti-capital ship weapon to be used against fighters. No matter what the skill level of the pilot is. Would you go out and buy a shotgun to swat flies? I don't think so.
Perhaps I should quote a part of my post most of you seem to have ignored:
Quote:Can guns be made to affect different ship classes differently? Kind of like the way the shields are affected by special types of guns depending on what type they are.
For example, make the SNAC do 20,000 damage against all fighter-class ships, and the normal amount against freighter-class ships.
CDing a nova in the face of a fighter was one of my favourite tactics in my bomber.... - i admit, a little cheap though.
now, nova torps are not destroyed by a single CD anymore ... reason for that is.... - back then, you would stick to the enemy as your target and use the train CD blast radius to pop the nova, which would then catch the fighter.
now you d have to switch to the nova torp itself and CD it - which is rather hard, cause you usually do it in the short time of a joust. - but killing a fighter with a nova is still about as easy as hitting a fighter with a sunslayer. - as long as you have a least one battery, you can do it... easier than using a SN, imo.
' Wrote:Especially in group fights, you have people on your side who don't know how to fight bombers... And you get punished for it when he gets SNACed AND fills up the other team with regens.
It's not that big of a deal 1v1, but consider this:
In Omicron Kappa a while back, I went there on my falcata to buy a SNAC. I got jumped by 9, yes, 9 corsairs. Titans, Talons, Praetorians, etc.
Funny thing is, I won. At the end of the fight, I still had 60 bots left, because everytime I was about to die, I ended up SNACing someone and getting full regens.
Now, no matter HOW badly they piloted, if I was in a fighter, I wouldn't be able to stand up to even 4 of them.
That clearly says something is wrong with the SNAC balance, and if you don't think so, then I'm thinking you're just afraid to lose your uber blue-message generator.
EDIT: Also, this is about the SNAC being used against FIGHTERS. Leave the anti-cap comments aside. I really don't see a logic behind an anti-capital ship weapon to be used against fighters. No matter what the skill level of the pilot is. Would you go out and buy a shotgun to swat flies? I don't think so.
Perhaps I should quote a part of my post most of you seem to have ignored:
ah so many posts, sorry but some need to be responded to specifically....
' Wrote:SNACs are fine...
if a fighter/bomber gets hit by it it either
a) bad luck, freak accident
b) their fault for not dodging properly.
as for removing SNACs altoghter; why? are we gonna yel at caps, hoping they will explode?
This thread isnt about removing SNACs, its named "SNAC BALANCE" not "SNAC REMOVAL"
Bad luck / freak accident, maybe.... Not dodging properly, more likely....But seeing how a number of bomber pilots train so that they can hit fighters with their SNs during dogfights... That rules out both of those statements.
' Wrote:I can only laugh at that statement. At the range of 500, the SN flies a second even from a thrusting bomber (i.e ship speed added). You mean you can precisely predict where a dodging fighter will be in the next second and hit that spot?
Laugh at the statement all you want, but heres something for ya. Of the few times I do fire an SN at a Fighter, its anywhere between 400 and 600 range, maybe im mis-recalling the range, but im 95% sure thats the last range I could see before target cleared out.
' Wrote:1) This I agree with, but only if the engagement is 3v3 or less. Fighters have pretty poor survivability against bombers, it has to be said, but the larger the engagement gets, the less survivability the bombers have.
2) I disagree with the arguement that bombers are still the anti-everything in combat. In smaller engagements, gunboats can be brought up to fight them. In larger engagements, the sheer weight of fighters can crush them. Both counters require the pilots to be reasonably skilled and to know what they're doing, which isn't always the case. Plenty of fighter pilots don't know their left from right, and just as many gunboats choose to fight in turret mode without strafing, making them easy prey for nova torpedos.
3) As a result, I think the "Practice more, get better and stop complaining about balance" saying applies here. If it isn't bright, well, mkay, but its true.:sleep:
1) Did i forget to mention the 8 Bomber v X Lib Lawful Fighters Bombers and 1 Gunboat engagement where um.... everyone was swarmed with SNs untill they got hit by one and insta'ed? Sure if you have 3 fighters to a bomber their surviability might go down, but odds are the bomber will take out atleast one of those fighters.
2) So you would send a Gunboat to counter oh say..... 2+ Bombers? Do show me a gunboat pilot who turret modes.... i always see them EKill and barrage their target.
3) Ah yes, "Practice More", sorry mate but some people (note the general term, im not saying myself, or other specific people) aren't able to become PvP Elitests who know every single perfect way to do something within a game.
' Wrote:well its all about the skills of the pilots involved... I think that a good fighter pilots against a good bomber pilot one on one . the Fighter have the advantage.. The speed and agility give him the upper hand.
The SNAC is a great weapon and i would not change one thing about it.
I've yet to meet a single bomber pilot who didnt have trouble keeping up with a fighter. I've kept up with most other fighters in my bomber, even been complimented on my survivability in a kiith SHF on one occasion, and have seen other bombers keep up with my fighter with its oh-so-superior speed and agility
' Wrote:Yep thats about it... if you get an escort for your capital you will make the bombers be busy fighting the escort off. and i do think its balanced.
Wrong. General rule in a pvp battle is to take out capital ships first. Bombers, even with a fighter or two on them will do their best to torp a capital ship, which doesnt take much to do. I've seen bombers with numerous fighters on them still land SN's on their targets.
' Wrote:1) Most SN kills on fighters I get are because of opponent's lack of dodging. Fighting a bomber in VHF needs patience, rushing into a series of jousts is suicidal.
2) Fighting fighters in bombers isnt that easy as it may seem to the fighter pilot. Especially in heavy bombers, fighter just outmanuevers you. There isnt much people that can hit fighter out of joust with SN, so you just need to avoid direct jousts without shields. Its simple as that and many people still dont get it. (though some skilled bomber pilots will SN you regardless :P Im not one of them though)
3) Against caps they work like they should.
4) Against fighters, well, the idea of one special bomber class of guns may work. I actually thought if its possible to change gun slots to turrets, possibly 6class turrets (which are not used I believe) and making all 6 class turrets bomber weapons (slow, hard hitting shieldbusters, maybe even ignoring shield type, or more types of shieldbusters)
1) Jousting blame again.... Note my previous comments of how even a dodging fighter can be SN'ed.
2) Fighting fighters in bombers might not be the same as in a fighter, but its anything but difficult.
3) Of course they work against caps like they should. The only problem is them being overly effective at killing Fighters and other Bombers as well
4) Problem with that is it still leaves the standing problem.
' Wrote:I did read his post, and my point was that he is incorrect. People use the SNAC because they're used to the weapon, and its easier to use against capital ships than a Nova torpedo. That's probably true, as the Nova isn't as good against shields.
The nova does more damage (165.000) than the supernova (132.000), it tracks, it does splash damage, has longer range (4200 vs 2000ish) and uses less energy. You obviously haven't looked up the stats, tried one or seen one in action so you don't really know what you're talking about.
Nova Torp:
Can Kill the person that fires it.
Can Kill allies to the person that fires it.
Does very little, to no damage to most capital shields.
Splash Damage is variable by range from explosion.
Is worthless to fire past 1k due to target movement.
Supernova:
Can NOT kill the person that fires it.
Can ONLY kill allies to the person that fires it if they by shear bad luck, as with =LSF= Gamma Six in Texas, gets in the projectile's path.
Does Guaranteed Shield Damage to anything it hits.
No Variable Damage.
Has a Max 3000 Thruster Range, 4000 Cruise Range, more likely to hit at those ranges on a large capital.
' Wrote:EDIT: Also, this is about the SNAC being used against FIGHTERS. Leave the anti-cap comments aside. I really don't see a logic behind an anti-capital ship weapon to be used against fighters. No matter what the skill level of the pilot is. Would you go out and buy a shotgun to swat flies? I don't think so.
A fighter who gets hit by a SNAC was the one at fault, not the weapon its' self. Nerf the SNAC all you want, people will still hit learn to kill fighters with it. So instead of calling for an unneeded (though not necessarily unwarranted) Nerf, perhaps all the fighter pilots out there stupid enough to joust a bomber with no shield should learn that Freelancer is a skill based game, stats mean next to nothing. Your failures are your own fault, and not the fault of the equipment you use, or used against you. Train yourself and learn from your mistakes.
The SNAC is not overpowered or unbalanced. If it was, it would have been changed already (as seen with the 4.84 Sabre and Missiles in Update 6)
Quote:Perhaps I should quote a part of my post most of you seem to have ignored:
I believe that was answered in one of the earlier posts. It's not possible, there is no distinction between armour types on Fighters and Freighter.
' Wrote:the nova is good against large caps.(aka, not light gunboats)
Not quite true. If the gunboat is an idiot and you get a shot lined up, a pair of Novas can toast them instantly. I think a single one can do it to even fighter 8 gunships too?
The SN doesn't need to be changed. Just don't fly straight at one.
As for bombers landing shots even when fighters are on them, well, yes, the firepower of a VHF is simply too small to bring the bomber down quickly enough. Take, say, an armoured bomber , with a hull of ~50k. That takes quite a long time to reduce to zero with regular guns - and that's ignoring the shield and regens. What invariably happens is that the VHF pilot gets bored or lazy or both and after a while starts to joust the bomber in an attempt to cause more damage or land razor hits with greater frequency. A little aim practice on the part of a bomber pilot and boom. Adios. I guess that's what happened to fighters who flew straight at the flying fortresses in WW2 rather than showing patience and picking them off.
Personally I'd like to see all fighter weapons get a huge damage buff. But a wingman and a CD work wonders.
But don't change the SN cannon. It is one of the great levellers of the game and should be considered for sainthood.