Nighthawk, take note. Alot of bomber pilots, TRAIN to hit Fighters with SN regardless of the situation, whether they are dodging or not.
Not only that but if the SN was nerfed to where it could only do Mini Razor damage vs Fighters, trust me, all the hard work in the world wouldn't allow someone to find a way to insta kill a fully armored/stocked Fighter with it.
Athenian has a bit of a point about bombers having more armor and regens.
My Upholder without armor is more than enough.
--Gets shreaded by anti-fighter capital guns, fighter guns. Anything meant for fighters/bombers, it wont last long against.
And I still participate in battles that target multiple battleships / cruisers / fighters and bombers.
The people who train to hit fighters with SN are freaks - they'd train to do whatever was next insane if you took that out of their arsenal.
I do agree that fighter weapons could have a boost. By weapons I mean guns. But then yeah, boosting them also boosts bombers against fighters. So it's all tough.
' Wrote:Nighthawk, take note. Alot of bomber pilots, TRAIN to hit Fighters with SN regardless of the situation, whether they are dodging or not.
Not only that but if the SN was nerfed to where it could only do Mini Razor damage vs Fighters, trust me, all the hard work in the world wouldn't allow someone to find a way to insta kill a fully armored/stocked Fighter with it.
?
Again, only way to hit dodging fighter is SN-ramming him, which is not really possible in most situations. Second way to hit from side or back is when the fighter is flying in a straight line, which is not dodging, in my opinion. The SN isnt so fast to hit in a chase. Most cases it hits are mentioned above or are just pure luck.
Seriously, have you ever flown a bomber?
Quit jousting, quit flying straight even for a second when your shields are down against a bomber, be patient and watch the results. It works.
Its quite well balanced, just people need to learn how to fight against it. You may hear this all the time, but its really true.
Only thing that I think should be changed is the gun/missile to turret slots as I posted here before. That would eliminate misslespam bombers and make their guns less effective against fighters. But this is a SNAC discussion, right...
EDIT:
Quote:The people who train to hit fighters with SN are freaks - they'd train to do whatever was next insane if you took that out of their arsenal.
I do agree that fighter weapons could have a boost. By weapons I mean guns. But then yeah, boosting them also boosts bombers against fighters. So it's all tough.
Boosting fighter weapons might sound good but it doesnt affect only bombers. You must take other fighters and even caps (especially GBs) into consideration. I think it would make balance teams heads hurt a bit :D
Yes, but I'm starting to think that either you havn't, or you're illiterate. Training can help make dodging irrelevant, and there are plenty of other ways to hit a dodging ship. Flukes, foresight, or simply a swarm of SNAC's can do the trick. SNAC speed can hit in a chase with a little luck, seeing as it stacks with whatever your ship is doing when it is fired. Luck is a major part, but most people slip up every now and then, and that's when you take the shot. Aye, I'm opposed to nerfing the SNAC, but I'm looking at the issue from both sides and am willing to argue them both for the sake of sanity, so please don't insult people when you've failed to interpret what they're saying.
Missilebombers aren't really that great a problem, seeing as any fool who mounts more than a para/sw on his bomber is screwing himself over. With the class 10 guns and huge powerplant you're much better off with shieldbusters or codenames, much as I hate the latter.
Benjamin, I'd sig that if I wasn't so lazy.
Edit: Pearl, my mind wandered while I was posting so maybe I confused the context and you havn't misinterpreted. If that's the case, I apologise. Otherwise, above points stand.
I fly bombers a lot, actually, I have more bombers than fighters I think :D
I fly both bombers and fighters, and seriously, Ive never been SNed in a fighter while really dodging at 100%. Give the man that can SN a fully evasive fighter a cookie for achieving something nearly impossible.
Still, the SN does familiar sound, and takes around a second to reach you, so when you hear it, you have around a second to dodge, which is enough in most fighters. ;)
SNAC are balanced. some fighters die to them because they are impatient.
they start jousting (hoping to land some missles sometimes) and end up taking a face full of snac. is that the snac`s fault? no, it`s the fighter pilot`s fault.
mini razors are a baby snac, work by the same principle. no one complains about them, and they`re even faster. less power but enough to seriously hurt or kill a slightly damaged fighter.
dodge like hell and a snac won`t hit you. if you are too lazy too dodge or too impatient to dogfight you`ll pay the price.
also, nova torps are a good weapon. tad expensive to fire away happily but they do hurt. same rule apllies, use them with caution and don`t get impatient or they backfire on you.
' Wrote:Alot of bomber pilots, TRAIN to hit Fighters with SN regardless of the situation, whether they are dodging or not.
A lot of people train to hit people with missiles, too. A lot of people also train to hit people with mines with the mine+ekill+CD combination. Then some people train to hit people with the MR and Inferno, but some people train other things as well, like me, I trained to dodge, well, pretty much everything. SNACs, MRs, Mines. I do it pretty effectively too. But that would be because I, as you put it, TRAIN.
Once again, and since you're a fan of larger fonts, I'll use it too: Freelancer is a skill based game.
And in case you need a definition of 'player skill', it is where you, the person playing the game, need actual skill to play the game, and it is not based on a bunch of 'levels' 'skills' or numbers you've collected through hours of grinding. That is what makes Freelancer unique in the sense of an online game. No need to spend hours working on your characters level and gear just to be the top, even the lowest Liberator can beat the mightiest Wrath.
So what, just because certain people learn to kill people with one weapon, that makes it in need of a nerf? Sure, the SNAC was never intended to be a fighter-fighter weapon. Even with the proposed nerf in this thread, I sure as hell wouldn't stop killing fighters with it. If anything I'd do it more, just to rub it in your face that you can nerf my equipment all you want, but it won't make you a better pilot than me. In fact, it will make me a better pilot than you, because I'll still be beating you with inferior equipment.
' Wrote:Still, the SN does familiar sound, and takes around a second to reach you, so when you hear it, you have around a second to dodge, which is enough in most fighters. ;)
Come to Australia, where even your CM's pop out two seconds too late! Half the time you don't see the mines before they quite literally appear in front of your face, missiles are already right on your arse by the time you get the warning and such a simple answer as 'listen for the sounds!' becomes completely irrelevant because by the time it registers on your PC it's about to kill you dead.
That said, I realise that most of the people who SNAC me were either lucky, skilled, or took advantage of one of my stuff-ups.
' Wrote:The SN doesn't need to be changed. Just don't fly straight at one.
As for bombers landing shots even when fighters are on them, well, yes, the firepower of a VHF is simply too small to bring the bomber down quickly enough. Take, say, an armoured bomber , with a hull of ~50k. That takes quite a long time to reduce to zero with regular guns - and that's ignoring the shield and regens. What invariably happens is that the VHF pilot gets bored or lazy or both and after a while starts to joust the bomber in an attempt to cause more damage or land razor hits with greater frequency. A little aim practice on the part of a bomber pilot and boom. Adios. I guess that's what happened to fighters who flew straight at the flying fortresses in WW2 rather than showing patience and picking them off.
Personally I'd like to see all fighter weapons get a huge damage buff. But a wingman and a CD work wonders.
But don't change the SN cannon. It is one of the great levellers of the game and should be considered for sainthood.
Good points. But if you increased the fighter guns' dps, it should be done for everything other gun/turret class as well. A fighter gun should not out-dps a gunboat turret.
Leave the SNAC alone. It's fine, it does the job it's suppose to.
However, I still think the whole bomber philosophy needs to be fixed, as I have already stated.
For a recap: Make bombers slightly larger across the board. Slight increased to strafe, decreased turn rate. That way they can still evade anti-fighter guns on caps, but are very vulnerable to fighters. Give them a larger power plant or an increased power plant regen rate. Three hardpoints (up to class 10) and three slots for a torp, SNAC and cd.
Or failing that, reduce the bomber's hull points. For example: standard VHF hull + 100 pts.
However, I seriously doubt any real changes will be made to bomber attributes. The force is strong with the bomber lobby here. The bomber can take on most opponents and is relatively inexpensive.
On a final note, the cap ships and their weapons in this mod have tweaked to encourage the pilot to specialize their layouts and to work in teams with other types of vessels. In my opinion, the bomber does not reflect this new trend as well as it should. It is too flexible and stand alone.
Quote:Come to Australia, where even your CM's pop out two seconds too late! Half the time you don't see the mines before they quite literally appear in front of your face, missiles are already right on your arse by the time you get the warning and such a simple answer as 'listen for the sounds!' becomes completely irrelevant because by the time it registers on your PC it's about to kill you dead.
There is also such a thing as common sense, though, Jake. If you're gonna be jousting a bomber with no shield, you know damn right they're gonna try hit you with a SNAC. When fighting a bomber, it also takes two passes before your shield pops back up, too. So if you don't hear them fire on the first pass, be ready to dodge again on the second.
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