It sucks because I was not able to dodge 3 chims? Yes, because in other HFs, Greyhound and Gladiator, I was able to dodge even more VHFs on my tail.
There might be 2 people with Paladins, but its always the same two people, no one else is flying it, thats what I meant. And everyone in BAF who tried flying it says its horrible, its not only me.
And, Chimaera is able to dodge Templars which are not able to keep up with it, yes. And you are good at dodging too then.
By dying in that ship, in meant dying in situation that the person is able to handle in any other ship. Not just dying while being outnumbered/capspammed etc.
I find it funny that most people saying that its okay are kusarian players, and never tried flying Paladin, while most bretonian players say it sucks.:D
EDIT: I dont believe numbers very much, but there are some stats from Datastorm. Ive heard the extra stats (steering, mass, etc.) it shows are not very reliable, but from what I understand, higher number means "worse" (because BSses have huuuge numbers according to it)
Quote:Paladin
Gun/Turret Mounts: 6/0
Armor: 8600
Cargo Space: 50
Max Batteries/NanoBots: 56/56
Optimal Weapon Class: 7
Max. Weapon Class: 9
Additional Equipment: M, CM, CD/T
Just tested Paladin against Greyhound, Gladiator, and Chimaera.
Paladin vs. Greyhound - 1:0 for Paladin, with some problems, but I made the Greyhound run
Paladin vs. Gladiator - 1:0 for Paladin, went quite easily, may be because pilot of the Gladiator was flying it the first time, might need testing again
Paladin vs. Chimaera - 1:0 for Chimaera. This is where it fails, HFs are supposed to counter VHFs, especially the Paladin was made to counter Chimaeras, which outturn Templars. Sadly it fails at its purpose, Chimaera is equally agile, while having more firepower, armor, and being HF sized.
Paladin was made as a response to superior Chimaera, thats what I was told. Instead, Chimaeras are superior not only to Templars, but also the new Paladin.
You may persuade me that its balanced against other HFs, and that it is like any other HF, but then there is something wrong with Chimaera. Either the Paladin is bad, and needs some kind of boost, or the Chimaera is too good.
For the datastorm numbers, it's not that "bigger is worse", it's a ratio of the steering numbers to each other and to the mass. I'm not sure what the formula is, but I have seen it around.
And as I understood it, VHFs were supposed to be superiority fighters. IE, meant to take out LFs, HFs, and other VHFs. Paladin was not designed as a "response" to the superior Chimera. Read the infocard, they were old fighters pulled out of storage because of losses during the war.
And by playtesting, I meant the sort of playtesting the balance team does. Do 5 1v1 matches, then switch fighters with the other guy and do 5 again. Then do some 2v2 matches. Look at the results then. It's still not a statistically significant sample size, but it's a lot better than single battles.
' Wrote:For the datastorm numbers, it's not that "bigger is worse", it's a ratio of the steering numbers to each other and to the mass. I'm not sure what the formula is, but I have seen it around.
And as I understood it, VHFs were supposed to be superiority fighters. IE, meant to take out LFs, HFs, and other VHFs. Paladin was not designed as a "response" to the superior Chimera. Read the infocard, they were old fighters pulled out of storage because of losses during the war.
And by playtesting, I meant the sort of playtesting the balance team does. Do 5 1v1 matches, then switch fighters with the other guy and do 5 again. Then do some 2v2 matches. Look at the results then. It's still not a statistically significant sample size, but it's a lot better than single battles.
If it depends on the mass, hell then look at it closer, Chimaera has 150 mass, like all HFs listed there. If you would have found the formula, post it here please, it would help. I dont have time to find it myself right now, as I need to go soon.
If VHFs are superior to everything lower, what are HFs supposed to do then? Cannon fodders? I always seen HFs as a counter to VHFs, sacrificing damage to outmanuever VHFs and bombers, while VHFs kill bombers and swarm light gunboats/ships.
Ive had enough group testing in random fights and events, dont worry. From each side of the barricade, both in it and against it. A bit less duels though, mainly because dueling in that huge thing is quite contraproductive.
Once again I repeat, Im not the only one thinking something is wrong, there was a lot of people testing it while .85 came out, most of them gave up on flying it further though. :unsure:
Honestly, the HF issue (and LF) has been a big problem with me too. If VHFs and superiority fighters, and LFs are "interceptors" (Ha! hardly, but don't get me started on that) then HFs are what? Cheap VHFs?
Honestly, I would put all the mkII heavy fighters like templar and chimera into the HF category, make HFs the superiority fighters, and move the SHFs to the VHF category, and remove the SHF category once and for all. Other fighters in the VHF category might be, say, the executioner, the nepthys, etc.
Regardless of what they are supposed to do, Ive always seen it this way
SHFs - cheap gunboats, used as support but weak in their own, usually cannon fodder for bomber SNs (should be remade or deleted completely imo:P)
VHFs - Able to give bombers hell, light support against gunboats (if they mount razors)
HFs - Almost universal fighters, killing VHFs and bombers, while being light and low armoured, thus not very good as a anti-GB support like VHFs (the GB part may be arguable though)
LFs - Supposed to intercept, but it doesnt work very much. They are more like CD support to me, destroying enemy explosives, while being practically unhittable, and having low firepower on their own
Regardless of the classification system, I think we can all agree that the main-line fighters for all houses should be superiority fighters, correct? Whatever category, VHF or HF, they fall into.
It's the relation between the numbers that matters, capship have HUGE steering power, but also HUGE angular inertia.
Here are the relations that matter:
The 3 max turning speed numbers come from datastorm ones by dividing steering torque by angular drag, the 3 turning responses come from dividing steering torque by rotation inertia.
Paladin (mass, 3 times max turning speed (higher = better), 3 times turning response (higher = better)):
' Wrote:Just tested Paladin against Greyhound, Gladiator, and Chimaera.
Paladin vs. Greyhound - 1:0 for Paladin, with some problems, but I made the Greyhound run
Paladin vs. Gladiator - 1:0 for Paladin, went quite easily, may be because pilot of the Gladiator was flying it the first time, might need testing again
Paladin vs. Chimaera - 1:0 for Chimaera. This is where it fails, HFs are supposed to counter VHFs, especially the Paladin was made to counter Chimaeras, which outturn Templars. Sadly it fails at its purpose, Chimaera is equally agile, while having more firepower, armor, and being HF sized.
Paladin was made as a response to superior Chimaera, thats what I was told. Instead, Chimaeras are superior not only to Templars, but also the new Paladin.
You may persuade me that its balanced against other HFs, and that it is like any other HF, but then there is something wrong with Chimaera. Either the Paladin is bad, and needs some kind of boost, or the Chimaera is too good.
This basically shows that Paladin is fine.
For Chimaera comparison check the GC VHF thread. Chimaera is by far the slowest of all Kusari VHFs. When even BAF members tell me it's fine then it might actually be a bit too bad, since it's simply not normal to say of enemy ships that they are fine.
Also 1vs1 HF has rather hard time against any VHF, tested many times both on test server and on RP one. Most funny part was when all corsairs suddenly switched to Gladiators as 4.85 came out, so I undocked my Titan and went for 1vs1 training.... and killed everyone without problem. Then some of them switched to Titan, and suddenly I even lost.
If you really want to back search about the reason Paladin was made, then it was not to counter Chimaera 1vs1. But to act as fast support in fleet battles with heavier firepower than Hussar. That said this was based on 4.84 assumptions, where 90% of all Templar kills were to mines, now this doesn't happen any more.
Now Chimaera will mostly win vs Templar 1vs1, but in 2vs2 or bigger it's actually the other way". The heavy armor, faster dodging and "all in front" shape makes it as hard to hit Templar from Chimaera (with 600m/s guns) in big fight as it is to hit Chimaera from Templar (with 700 m/s guns), but then Templar has 3k more armor.
I also remember watching some BAF vs CR fights, now when CR all aimed on OC Sabres that came by, those Sabres died. When they aimed on BAF Templars they simply did too little (if any) damage. On the other hand if you do Titan vs Templar group fights it's basically very equal, due to both ships having hard to hit shapes and good dodging.
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Anyway Paladin is at miminum average HF. HFs are hardly simple to use fighters, basically if you can fly LF (= actually kill someone with it) you'll love a HF as it gives you a bit extra firepower with similar handling. If you try to fly HF as a VHF you will fail.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
The Paladin is allright in groups as long as no one is targeting it, after being targeted it goes down fast thanks to its size, which is roughly the same as the Templar. Its agility doesnt help much, against Mollys you face mostly Greyhounds which can keep up with it very well and do some serious damage to it, against Corsairs, heh, I havent seen much Gladiators after the last time they got beaten up in them in Cambridge right after .85 :DAnd against Kusari, Chimaeras -can- beat it in a chase faster than Templar.
After a few discussions on skype, most of the BAF was saying that resizing, or even getting new model would do.
In my opinion, Paladin has bad balance of size x armor. One of the things could get a minor boost (read: scaledown in case of size of course :D) If it has to die to a razor + scratch from a ram, it should be at least able to avoid the razor, which is now hard with its size.
Getting whole new model would solve it all though (I hope)
"Old" Paladin model could become a bretonia civilian fighter of some kind that way too.
![[Image: hG0lGaj.png]](https://i.imgur.com/hG0lGaj.png)
![[Image: sigiw102.jpg]](http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/rytirm/sigiw102.jpg)