ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS

[sovereign]

The Order Light Carrier is basically a heavy battlecruiser with a battleship shield. Make of that what you will. Personally I think it should be considered a "battleship" for these purposes simply because of the problems I remember hearing about their numbers... but I do believe that since I neither fly one nor have ever seen one in space, my opinion on that distinction is inconsequential.

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[Heartless]

Well what I think is that Carriers are in RP a lot more limited in virtually every way (limited in numbers, resources, production, effort, etc.) than a Battleship. Also all the fighters and bombers they hold can't just be produced like flies along with every carrier. So I think carriers should be limited as well but we'll see.
I'm just wondering cause all the other carriers are restricted, what's the reason for the Geb not to be?

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SwissScorch --> Heartless

[Sprolf]

The Geb should be definitely restricted, in my opinion. Perhaps buffed up somewhat after said restriction.
(I fly an indie Order Resheph, so I'm speaking from some experience with the Order and whatnot. I've not only flown the Geb extensively in single player, but I'm toying with the silly idea of being stupid and purchasing it. So, from that slant biased against your argument, I manage to agree with you.)


Also...
Hmm... there's plently of rules and regulations here. Lots of red tape.
I'd have to say, for once, said red tape is actually somehow conducive to the overall well being of the community, in my opinion.

That's not only interesting, that's brilliant.


I wonder if this is a harbinger for better things to come.

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[Lux]

If a faction does not follow cannon RP, are they allowed to order independent characters to do something relating to non-cannon RP?

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THEY TOLD ME I COULD BE ANYTHING SO I BECAME A SIGNATURE PLS HLP

[Thexare]

Oh, well. Works for me. I don't see why we need a free cap VIII armor, but, hey, I guess factions without capital ships can just auction it off, 'eh?

Three words: Absurdly Durable Shire.

For the most part, I like it. However, the ability to control who can and cannot fly their faction's battleships, while nice in theory (as it would help control rampant BS-whoring... Not that I see much of that anymore), I don't think is a good idea. It means that, basically, no one but official factions and those independents they really like (and who kiss their ass) would be able to fly them...

While this may be true for most factions, one of the Dons making the decision for the Outcasts is an independent. If memory serves, the Corsairs had an independent Elder, as well.

And let's be honest, who are we most worried about abusing this? It's Eppy, right?:P

Half-jokes aside, I'm grateful for these changes, even as an independent. But, I'm biased as a Light Fighter whore, so feel free to dismiss my opinion if you wish.

[Xoria]

How does one report a faction's abuse of power by the way?

That's the wrong question to ask. The correct question is : how does the denied/aggrieved/victimized person ever get his hands on sufficient evidence that he can submit to the Admins to prove that he is being denied a battleship for personal or non-roleplay related reasons?

Plain and simple, nobody ever will. The person being wronged will never have access to those PMs, those skype chats, or those screenshots where his application is denied for the wrong reasons. All he will ever see is the shallow mask of "roleplay" denying the application.

What actually happened is irrelevant to the practicalities of any appeal. The only thing that is relevant is the evidence that each side can submit about what happened.

And the fact is that no majority of Admins is ever going to over-rule a faction decision without evidence so conclusive that it cannot be denied or ignored, evidence that the wronged-party will never have and the Admins will never see.

But denials for personal reasons is simply a subset of a larger issue. What happens when a faction decides that within its concept of acceptable and reasonable roleplay all of the battleships that could exist already do, and therefore all future applications are denied? Or what happens if OPG wants a battleship and the Benitez and TBH say no? Or what happens when HF says no to a spyglass request, and I, as faction leader of the Lane Hackers, couldn't care less what they think and grant it? After empowering factions to make these decisions, don't be deceived into thinking that the Admins will then micromanage the criteria that every faction uses to make those decisions. We don't have the time, and we certainly will not have the willingness.

Or what about someone who wants to roleplay a renegade battleship, or a battleship with a commander who is rebellious to faction authority, or any sort of story that the faction finds unwelcome? Make no mistake, the factions will have such a wide latitude in determining what is reasonable, that there will effectively be no appeals. Otherwise, every single person who is turned down will make an appeal, and if you think Admin decision making is slow now for faction creations and special roleplay requests, just imagine how slow it will be for something like this. The vast majority of player requests we receive now barely get any attention (and those are relatively minor to this by comparison), and that isn't going to change in any positive way, especially not when the outcome involves stepping on the factions' toes to do it.

Appeals to the Admins is simply a tantalizing sop to lure in the unwary with a promise on a limit to power abuse. In practicality, it might as well not even exist. It will carry just as much weight as the contents of any complaint box in any bureaucratic office on planet Earth : zero. Doubt me? Take a look at the abuses that you personally know about around here, and then count the number of them that have resulted in negative Administrative consequences. The former outnumber the latter by a wide margin, or you aren't paying much attention.

I've seen from the inside the process of faction creation requests, special roleplay requests, and player appeals on a variety of issues. The concept of appeals here is a farce. I know it as a player. I know it as a faction leader. And I know it as an Admin. I oppose this proposal, but the chances of anyone winning my vote on appeal based on the necessary and objective standard of proof is practically non-existent. You might get my vote on some other basis, but it's unlikely to be on that one because I know how high the standard will be and I know that nobody will be able to meet it.

I can't help but be reminded of a series of famous lines that have come down from the 1930's. I'll paraphrase : "In Sirius, they came first for the liners, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a liner;
And then they came for the battleships, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a battleship;
And then they came for the destroyers, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a destroyer;
And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

But I guess this is the price you all get to pay to fix the problem.
Oh wait, what problem?
I almost forgot, nobody has even proven that there is a problem that this can fix, nor even remotely proven that it can fix it better than Admins taking badly behaving battleships away from their owners without restricting the freedoms of everyone else on the server.
Wow. Punish the guilty and let the innocent be free. What a concept.

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[worldstrider]

HOLY COW! Here! Here! Well said XORIA!!

I pick myself up off the floor, push my jaw back in place, pop my eyes back in their sockets and give him a standing ovation. Bravo!! there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be said. thank you so much for saying something.
One among us DOES have balls.

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[tazuras]

Well, overall, I do like the proposal. Also like everyone else, I am concerned about the BS granting powers.

I think there it would be very hard to prevent any sort of favoritism and this needs to be addressed. Even if a faction leader honestly thinks he is not letting bias influence his decision, there could still very well be an unconscious influence. I can think of three ways to address this, the first of which has been mentioned before:

1. Only allow factions to recommend the removal of battleship privileges.
   
2. Allow them to grant battleship licenses, but provide a rubric or system that the factions have to use to decide whether someone should be granted a license. Or have them make their own rubric and approve it. It doesnt have to be terribly specific but has to provide players with grounds to appeal the faction's decision and an idea of what the faction expects of an acceptable submission.
   
3. Allow factions to grant and ask for the suspension of BS licenses but also offer the licenses for sale. This will encourage people to make proper RP and work with factions but will make it so there is an alternative.
   

Edit: well, after that post from Xoria I guess option 2 wont work, have to go with option one or three. Or neither, which is seeming like a strong contender...

I am also a little concerned about allowing official factions to restrict access to the system that they own. It seems like that means the can effectively restrict access to any ship sold exclusively in that system. I can't say I support that.

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[kingvaillant]

As the leader of the LSF, and owner of Ellesmere, I support these modification to server rules and will make sure to prevent abuses from my members but also from any other Liberty official faction players. I kindly ask other leaders in the same "region" to do the same thing. Even if we are leaders, our ears have limits. Cooperation is vital

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Director of the Liberty Security Force: Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity

The Amundsen Zone-21 Restrictions

[n00bl3t]

That's the wrong question to ask. The correct question is : how does the denied/aggrieved/victimized person ever get his hands on sufficient evidence that he can submit to the Admins to prove that he is being denied a battleship for personal or non-roleplay related reasons?

Plain and simple, nobody ever will. The person being wronged will never have access to those PMs, those skype chats, or those screenshots where his application is denied for the wrong reasons. All he will ever see is the shallow mask of "roleplay" denying the application.

What actually happened is irrelevant to the practicalities of any appeal. The only thing that is relevant is the evidence that each side can submit about what happened.

And the fact is that no majority of Admins is ever going to over-rule a faction decision without evidence so conclusive that it cannot be denied or ignored, evidence that the wronged-party will never have and the Admins will never see.

But denials for personal reasons is simply a subset of a larger issue. What happens when a faction decides that within its concept of acceptable and reasonable roleplay all of the battleships that could exist already do, and therefore all future applications are denied? Or what happens if OPG wants a battleship and the Benitez and TBH say no? Or what happens when HF says no to a spyglass request, and I, as faction leader of the Lane Hackers, couldn't care less what they think and grant it? After empowering factions to make these decisions, don't be deceived into thinking that the Admins will then micromanage the criteria that every faction uses to make those decisions. We don't have the time, and we certainly will not have the willingness.

Or what about someone who wants to roleplay a renegade battleship, or a battleship with a commander who is rebellious to faction authority, or any sort of story that the faction finds unwelcome? Make no mistake, the factions will have such a wide latitude in determining what is reasonable, that there will effectively be no appeals. Otherwise, every single person who is turned down will make an appeal, and if you think Admin decision making is slow now for faction creations and special roleplay requests, just imagine how slow it will be for something like this. The vast majority of player requests we receive now barely get any attention (and those are relatively minor to this by comparison), and that isn't going to change in any positive way, especially not when the outcome involves stepping on the factions' toes to do it.

Appeals to the Admins is simply a tantalizing sop to lure in the unwary with a promise on a limit to power abuse. In practicality, it might as well not even exist. It will carry just as much weight as the contents of any complaint box in any bureaucratic office on planet Earth : zero. Doubt me? Take a look at the abuses that you personally know about around here, and then count the number of them that have resulted in negative Administrative consequences. The former outnumber the latter by a wide margin, or you aren't paying much attention.

I've seen from the inside the process of faction creation requests, special roleplay requests, and player appeals on a variety of issues. The concept of appeals here is a farce. I know it as a player. I know it as a faction leader. And I know it as an Admin. I oppose this proposal, but the chances of anyone winning my vote on appeal based on the necessary and objective standard of proof is practically non-existent. You might get my vote on some other basis, but it's unlikely to be on that one because I know how high the standard will be and I know that nobody will be able to meet it.

I can't help but be reminded of a series of famous lines that have come down from the 1930's. I'll paraphrase : "In Sirius, they came first for the liners, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a liner;
And then they came for the battleships, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a battleship;
And then they came for the destroyers, And I didnt speak up because I didn't own a destroyer;
And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

But I guess this is the price you all get to pay to fix the problem.
Oh wait, what problem?
I almost forgot, nobody has even proven that there is a problem that this can fix, nor even remotely proven that it can fix it better than Admins taking badly behaving battleships away from their owners without restricting the freedoms of everyone else on the server.
Wow. Punish the guilty and let the innocent be free. What a concept.

*Smiles.*

I think somewhere, deep down, everyone knows that, that, is the case.

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.