ADMIN NOTICE : OFFICIAL FACTION RIGHTS

[Seth Karlo]

I would like to say that I fully, completely and absolutely agree with everything Mal said in his post just there.

I am done:)

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Signature by Sleipnir.

[pipboy]

Ventana, I think that is unfair. (Considering I did run HX on Teks and had to put up with people coming into Beta and stuff like that.)

Not to mention, on a more public note, I am in official and unofficial factions. (People tend to forget this.)

I trust probably 80% of the people here enough not to worry about them--even when they vent sometimes.

It's the other 20%--15% of whom are fine most of the time on their own but who get easily stirred up and rally behind that last 5% who quite simply feel they own the place. There is room for everyone here--not only one. We should ALL strive to keep it that way.

Antifaction...err...didn't I start a faction?

Come on guys, don't take it all so literally. I wasn't picking on you two, but actually praising the fact that you keep faction lovers in line. And nooblet, come on man - you are one of the absolute biggest indie rights supporters around here, and also one of the first to jump on factions when they do something even mildly stupid. I know you're in factions.

Please don't miss the point of my post, I was simply trying to make a point with that paragraph - not make fun of you.

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[Malaclypse 666]

I think I will demonstrate the process by which I, as a faction leader, would be putting #5 into practice.

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[Jihadjoe]

I love you too Mal.

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[hack]

I actually think this is a step in the right direction.

As for the Factions being able to request a battleship license be removed upon proof of abuse of a battleship, I think that request should be extended for ALL capships. Its not just Battleships that get abused, Cruisers and Destroyers have a higher incidence of abuse. We all have been in situations where we have got the wtfpwn by one.

As for Dieters suggestion of harsher punishment for capships abuse, I think it's a great Idea. Don't do the Crime if you can't afford the punishment. Having a capship is a big responsibility in that you have to roleplay it correctly and have some self restraint and maturity. If you don't have those qualities, or are unable to grasp them when it is pointed out what you have done wrong and change your ways, then you don't need it.

Take it a step further...

"You can't post that rp on the forum because it involves our faction/system and affects our role play. Since we are "official" and you aren't, we will role play it our way or else have the admin strip your ship and cash if you play otherwise...capish?"

Actually, I agree with this. More than once someone has posted something that flies in the face of established / NPC rp gameplay without so much as a "By your leave" to the established faction / NPC faction and when asked about it, the answer is "I am not part of your faction so I can do whatever I want"
This I think is incredibly rude and self serving. WE dont need Indie LPI battleships sitting in the Badlands zapping light fighters (YES, it happened), someone who wants to RP the Chief of Liberty police, when the faction already has one (Yup, again this happened), Or someone that wants to roleplay the Internal Investigation division and "investigate " all of the officers here, telling them to stop what they are doing and telling them that they have power over my factionalized officers and they need to comply (Again, yes it happened). NO, it isn't right and I won't be a party to it.

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Formerly known as LPI Police Chief Hull O'Brien.
Creator of Sgt. V. Price, 207th Precinct out of Chula Vista Station

[n00bl3t]

Come on guys, don't take it all so literally. I wasn't picking on you two, but actually praising the fact that you keep faction lovers in line. And nooblet, come on man - you are one of the absolute biggest indie rights supporters around here, and also one of the first to jump on factions when they do something even mildly stupid. I know you're in factions.

Please don't miss the point of my post, I was simply trying to make a point with that paragraph - not make fun of you.

I know.

(Other comments blanked, PM me on Skype or something if you want them.)

Edit: As per n00bish behaviour, that would be Vendetta, not Ventana. Apologies.

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[pchwang]

My past two posts were about why the statistics of the survey was flawed to begin with... But since virtually no one paid attention to those, here's why I don't think this proposal should fly.

In response to Dieter's response to Xoria...

Xoria, if you told me there was a problem with badly played Spyglasses running rampant in Vespucci, Cortez and Magellan, I’d take your word for it. Other people tell you there are problems elsewhere. Can you not take their word for it? You also see the same sanction reports other Admins do.

Your critique of the battleship licencing idea is predicated on 2 assumptions:

1) Official Factions will fail to objectively evaluate the licence application.

2) If the Official Factions do fail to objectively evaluate the licence application, the harried Admins will be too busy, and disinterested to intervene.

Those assumptions are pessimistic.

I for one am optimistic that the opinions of faction leaders about the ability of a player to RP well, and understand the rules, will be sound. This is not rocket science. A good application for a battleship licence would demonstrate a good understanding of the faction diplomacy and RP, an interesting backstory for the vessel, and a good understanding of the server rules.

Xoria is not being pessimistic. He's being realistic. We all know that there are certain faction leaders who will fail to objectively evaluate licensing applications, and we also know that the admins don't exactly want to commit their lives to poking into every single application for a capital ship, which it may come down to.

Just look at the Special RP Request Subforum. Or even the Faction Creation Requests Subforum. Both were inundated with inane requests, and now, for the latter, there's a 500 million credit fee to make sure that prospective faction leaders think hard and long about their requests before blindly submitting one.

Everyone knows what a poor application would look like. “I want to get a battleship because I want to pwn piratz.” It will be objectively and demonstrably poor.

Right, of course, either the application is good, or it's bad, like you mentioned above. How often do you actually get black and white requests like these?

You speak of Admins having to wade through evidence of unfairness, which likely won't be available anyway, because it will all be buried in secret Skype chats, etc. That is wrong. The only "evidence" needing review will be a perfectly good application which got denied anyway, for no good reason. That's it.

No offense, but lulz? Dieter, you are perfectly right, but in thought, you haven't gone the whole nine yards. In the event something like the above occurred, you would sort through the evidence, and be like, "Whoa, this app got denied for no good reason!"

Then comes the second question...

"Why?"

And then, you have to wade through the evidence of unfairness, in order to make sure that for whatever reason why this application was denied, it would not happen again.

Otherwise, what are you going to do? "Oh, unfair denial of battleship request... meh, screw it, I'mma get ingame..."

We have application processes for all sorts of things here.

-Want to join an official faction? You have to apply.
-Want to start an official faction? You have to apply.
-Want to buy a system? You have to apply.
-Want a terrorist ID? You have to apply.

So now, you want to fly a battleship? You have to apply. That's all there is to the proposal, in a nutshell.

Except the above can actively be enforced by extra-game means. What I mean by that is that the admin can actually have a hand in any of the above.

Battleship regulation, on the other hand, is not going to be admin regulated.

There's a reason why the community has chosen you - YES YOU ADMIN OVER THERE YONDER - to lead and guide our community. There is a reason why not all faction leaders are admin.

I have said in the Admin forums and still believe that Right Number 5 should be subjected to a community vote, and only implemented if it got very strong backing. In my opinion, 60% in favour wouldn't be enough. Nor likely 70%. Would have to be very strong indeed.

Finally, I'll restate my point about statistics. Your 70% is not even the community's 70%, Dieter. I do not mean to be offensive, but by last two posts in this thread, which were obviously not really read or regarded by most of the community pretty much highlighted just that. Your 70% came from a skewed convenience survey that has extreme bias due to the fact that a large number of those who feel strongly about the issue submitted an answer.

If you want to conduct a survey to get results, conduct one correctly and then base your decisions off it. Otherwise, just make the decisions regardless. You are administrators.

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[7:42:05 PM][6:51:36 PM] Igor (Smokey): btw terry
[6:51:48 PM] Terrance Cooper: Ye?
[6:52:00 PM] Igor (Smokey): nothin
[6:52:03 PM] Igor (Smokey): just sayin btw
[6:52:05 PM] Terrance Cooper: <_<

Johnny_Haas: you shot anti criuse speed rockets!!!
Johnny_Haas: but why????
Johnny_Haas: ??
Johnny_Haas: why you shoot criuse speed rockets?

[torchwood]

so, when a faction becomes official we get our cash back?

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[carlabrams]

Finally, I'll restate my point about statistics. Your 70% is not even the community's 70%, Dieter. I do not mean to be offensive, but by last two posts in this thread, which were obviously not really read or regarded by most of the community pretty much highlighted just that. Your 70% came from a skewed convenience survey that has extreme bias due to the fact that a large number of those who feel strongly about the issue submitted an answer.

If you want to conduct a survey to get results, conduct one correctly and then base your decisions off it. Otherwise, just make the decisions regardless. You are administrators.

In practically every US election, there are many, many more people that are registered to vote than actually DO vote. Most of the time you end up with 30 - 40% of people that actually bother to do so that decide an election - and then we call an 80% positive vote to be a mandate.

Point being - you're not going to get 70% or, hell, even 20%, of all the registered members of this forum to actually vote. But if you get 70% of those people that are ACTIVE to vote for (or against) something, then it sounds like you're doing something right. (Let's face it - how many people actually come here more than once per week, or have registered for the forums and never came back?)

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Sentient Machine Alliance

[Eppy]

If this is true, either we are 1: going to see a lot less indies, 2: they are all going to have sub-par loadouts, or 3: top level equipment is going to need to be moved outside of guard systems.

At present, the only places to get a Supernova, MR, UAU mk 8, Enhanced thruster, and, in some cases, even class 9 guns, are in guard systems. If entry to guard systems is restricted to everyone not in the official, owning faction (as the ruling seems to imply), unofficial factions, official factions not wanting a guard system and independants have no chance to even set up a fighter properly...

Since I'm personally responsible for possibly the most restrictive, fascist system policy in history, I'd like to offer some perspective.

The motivations for restricting access to Omicron-85 as heavily as it was (and to a degree still is) are twofold. The first was political; at one point some time ago the NovaPG and the 101st got into a little scrap over some very personal matters between myself and Tony (BULLDOGNK, the leader of NPG at the time), and because of the personal nature of the impending conflict the RoS understandably refused to back the 101st up. Because the 101st was a smaller faction and the NovaPG were the largest on the server (Tony preferred the Zerg Rush approach, and much of the membership at the time was of very low quality), this would have spelt our doom, and, feeling very cornered, I attempted to put pressure on the RoS by locking down the system to everybody - Outcast Factions included. The situation was resolved without armed conflict, but it was partially successful in ruffling feathers, which, at the time, seemed preferable.

The second motivation was, as many had guessed, preventing the purchase of additional Outcast Dreadnoughts. The older players know how vocal I am about capship control (and most of the newer players have gathered, I'd assume), and I've seen a few bad, bad Outcast Dreadnoughts go and cause some mess (Zhaurov, the {Name}-SURNAMEs, the MNS-Indepenza [David >.>]), and a few of them that have just mysteriously walked out of Outcast control (which seems highly unlikely for the biggest, most expensive ship we, a nation with limited resources, produce), such as the Ven'Gyr, the old HF Flagship, The Kana Keiko and Kawa Panterra (Tony again), Dab's old AW BS who's name I can't remember and Korrd's Illuvitar (both of which I think actually got wiped around 4.83ish, before it was considered bad taste). So, locking down the system of purchases was considered the best possible solution - anybody who wanted one would have to show they could and would RP it properly via the Cap Registration (and we DID approve a few; they're not nearly as high demand as the Destroyer or Battleship). Anybody who had one without our sanction was obviously in violation of system policy, if it was illegal to go there in the first place, so if reason didn't work we could expediently put them up for summary decommissioning, if you will. There's really no reason to keep same-NPC-aligned indies out unless they do something particularly stupid, since there's now a real method for enforcing a capship registration (which doesn't involve as a final action the repeated explodification).

To clarify: It was never about keeping the indies out for the hell of it. The original motivations were essentially political and arms control.

EDIT: Also, I'll be proposing a new set of cap reg specifications to the Council of Dons sometime within a week, which I expect no issues with.

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Quick comment - we thought that Panzer was the Leader, Swift. -Agmen

Which Dreadnought was that?

One of your nine.