' Wrote:Big ships are still unbalanced. They should be more powerful, but incredibly expensive.
A battleship should cost around 1500mill. Be powerful enough to wipe like 3 cruisers, and a whole wing of fighters. Like EVE big ships...
What is the point of having a BS if a single bomber, Or two-three fighters, can take you down?
Battleships should be the kings of the battlefield. Another battleship, ot 2+ capships of smaller size, or 6 fighters with bombers should be able to take it... but no less than that.
A bomber should have trouble with a cruiser... As of now, a fighter can take down a cruiser alone.
Even if sea ships are different from spaceships it could be iteresting to keep the same price ratio we observe in real world. Just to add up a suggestion I give you some figures
The cost of production of a F-15 fighter (equivalent to our average VHF) was $50 millions
The cost of production of USS Nimitz (Nuclear Carrier) was (according to WikiP) 4.5 billions. Thus Nimitz price is circa 110 times the price of the fighter.
Since the price of the average VHF (with standard equipement) here is 4mil, if we keep the same ratio, the fair price for a CapS equivalent to Nimitz (and with a comparable resistence to torpedo attacks) would be 440mil... but how many fighter-bombers are needed to sunk the Nimitz?
In my opinion CapSs are overpriced for what they are now: they cost like 40 to 50 fighters and just one figter is able to take them down... just now, given the price, the ratio should be 1 to 3, at least... not 1 to 1.
Given actual prices the only reason to fly one of these beasts is to avoid to be bored by NPCs.
But there is something really underpriced: the armor reinforcemens. Why the **** reinforcing the armor of CapS should cost exactly the same as reinforcing the armor of light fighters? We should have different armor upgrade for each class of ships (or at least different from fighters to CapS). And the armor reinforcement for CapSs should cost 110 times... 150mil... at least.
And it might be the case that also the difference in price between fighters shields and CapSs shields is still to small, even if on this point I'm less confident.
My 2 cents.
Lump Lorry on behalf of the Lorry Family
_______________________________________________________________________________
(Former chars on Disco 4.82)-- The old Lorry Family --
Lump Lorry freelancer trader. chief of the Lorrys | Manta Lorry freelancer pilot | [HF] Cesare Lorry fighter pilot, HF member | sso|Ace Wolverine Lorry bounty hunter | [RM] M(anfred) Von Lorryhofen Rheinland Military pilot | [AEGIS] GB 303 Ticonderoga AEGIS artificial intelligence gunboat | (secret
member) In charge of keeping the family's secrets
I got some suggestions for you...
I saw the Corsair Dreadnought, and I couldn't fail to notice that it haves similarities with the empire battlecruiser from StarWars.
I would suggest that you should insert new ships in the game from Stargate Universe, like some Asgard capital ships, or Human Battleships. It would be great if I could find there an Ori battleship to buy, and to fight with it against some Wraith ships.
I would also suggest that the battleships should have more weapons, greater range (at least 3k) and the damage inflicted by a capital ship turret to destroy a fighter from max. 2 shots. I had a Liberty Dreadnought, and 10 Wrath killed me. It is not normal that a capital ship to be so weak, and it's weapons to drain so much energy. I would also suggest that a battleship to cost at least 1.2 mld. credits, cruisers at least 750 mil. frigates\destroyers around 500 mil. and gunboats from 250 mil.
No. Comparing starships to seaships is a bad idea.
I prefer to make them what i posted before. Not just big clumsy fighters.
They are *BATTLESHIPS*. The terror of the space. Not big fighters used as n00b practice target.
A battleship engeging a fighter should sound like this.
--Tac: Sir, we have an inbound fighter. Its targeting us with novas!
--Capt: Target the bogy (spelling?) and fire AF weps.
...
--Capt: So?
--Tac: I dont know where he s sir. I lost track after the 300 missiles we fired on him hit... I think he won't bother us anymore.
get it?
Fighter gets close... fighter goes kabooom.
Battleship needs to have 2 weapons class.
1. Long range weps. 5k range. Low refire, fast speed (5k in a sec should do). but crappy turret turn rate.
Battleship engages each other from long distances. A close encounter should be rare.
2. Short range weps. 1.5k range. Anti fighter. Fast firing, fast speed. Good turret turn rate.
(If you find any mistake in my English, please let me know via a PM)
(Really, I speak terrible English, so please, tell me if I make mistakes. I'd like to improve it a bit )
As this is most likely my first post here, I'd like to first say: hi
Secondly I'd like to express my emotions about the balance between fighters and capships: "what to hell?!"
How is it possible that a lone fighter or a wing of fighters can take out a Battleship? As far as I agree that a wing of VHF with good torpedoes could take out a Battleship, I can not stand a situation in which a captain of such devastating machine needs to cower when outnumbered by fighters.
In order to create a balanced ships one has to bear in mind their purpose, their functions. Let me cover them here:
Light Fighter: scouting, searching and providing shield for larger units by destroying torpedoes, missiles and engaging heavier fighters in prolonged fight, harrasing them and luring into traps. Very cheap to build, even cheaper to destroy.
Medium/Heavy Fighter: when battle comes this is the calss of ship you will see the most. It's flexibility, mobility and ability to survive match those of a simple soldier acting as the backbone of every attack or defense force. It is agile enough to take out a Light Fighter and it is hard to kill enough to survive a fight with VHF. It's flexibility and multi-functionality is it's gratest strength... and greatest weakness.
Very Heavy Fighters: Medium and Heavy Fighters killers with enough firepower to litterally turn into dust any non moving Light Fighter. However it's lack of agility makes it voulnerable to Light Fighters attacks, especially those done by experienced pilot. It is heavy enough to survive in battle against a Frigate.
Frigate: An anti fighter/bomber capital ship, with enough agility to easily outmanouver Battleships. They are the escorts for larger ships. Think of Falcon Millenium from Star Wars, do you remember this scene when they managed to evade a Star Destroyer (Battleship)? What is more it has dealt with fighters that pursued him. High refire rate guns able to turn light fighters into dust should be mounted on such a ship.
Cruiser/Destroyer: A medium capital ship serving as a Frigate and Gunboats killer. Designed to move in the battlefield and provide fire support, vanquishing medium threats. In terms of Freelancer such ship should posses enough firepower to damage a Battleship yet have enough refire rate and weapons projectile speed to hit smaller capships.
Battleship/Dreadnought: the big bad and outsandingly powerfull ship that is capable to turn the chances of a battle. These are comissioned to eradicate Cruisers and keep Frigates at bay. It is a huge ship that does not care about being engaged by fighters and should not as it has enough armor not only to withstand such attacks but to ignore them! However the function it serves unables it to succesfully deal with fighters. Against them a Battleship is just powerless relying on it's escorts such as Gunboats, Frigates and fighters. In Freelancer such ships should be designed as slow, rather clumsy yet with devastating firepower capable of hitting Cruisers, sometimes Frigates, hardly ever Gunboats and almost never fighters. What is more such ships should posses enough hitpoint to outmatch a Cruiser and enough shield's regeneration rate to almost ignore fighters and be threatened only by specialized bombers.
All of this should like like this:
Capships league:
Battleship kills Cruisers and Gunboats, ignore HF, all wings of MF and LF
Cruisers kill Gunboats HF and VHF
Gunboats kill Light Fighters and Medium Fighters, damage and harrass Battleships.
Fighters league:
VHFs kill Gunboats, Medium Fighters
HFs kill Light Fighters, Medium Fighters
Medium Fighters kill Light Fighters, and deal with HF, ignore Battleships
Light Fighters are a pain in the ass for all HF and VHF, ignore Battleships and Cruisers. Act as a great support for all units and defending capships from torpedoes, missiles, mines and distracting enemies leting larger units do their job: destroying.
' Wrote:1. Long range weps. 5k range. Low refire, fast speed (5k in a sec should do). but crappy turret turn rate.
Battleship engages each other from long distances. A close encounter should be rare.
2. Short range weps. 1.5k range. Anti fighter. Fast firing, fast speed. Good turret turn rate.
Hmm... I guess I get your point. Still... let assume the following
a) the BS will become incredibly expensive. Let us say 1500 milions of credits
b) so strong that a single shot of Antifighter turrets must be able to destroy anythink weaker than an HF. And 3 shoots must be enough for the strongest VHF.
Given b) we will soon face with regard to fighters the same problem we face now about pirating in CapS. A one to one fight btw a fighter and a CapS would be so unfair that, I forcast that sooner or later we would be forced to introduce a new rule... something like this... "1to1 PvP attacks between CapS and fighters can take place only if the BS have to defend itself from REPEATED and UNPROVOKED attaks from fighters". So to the owners of this giants would be forbidden to pirate and to attak anything smaller than a liner...
And if we would not implemet such a rule, with these giants around and free to attack any fighter they like to destroy... the envinroment would become crap quite soon. In fact it would be enough to have 2 players on the server, flying the kind of ship you suggest, to make impossible to play for everybody else is not flying this giants himself (if the 2 begin to behave like a*****e... and this happens from time to time... we all know... and with such a power it would happen even more often I guess, without any rule about it).
Ok... so now let's assume that the rule I suggest is implemented... thus "1to1 PvP attacks between CapS and fighters can take place only if the BS have to defend itself from unprovoked attaks". Then the caps would be useless the 90% of the time. Given the price 1500 milions, probably almost nobody would go to buy something so expensive and not much usefull... thus... the only one flying a Cap in the end would probably be the admins.
Ok... is this you plan? Make CapS an almost "Admin only" Ship?
Don't take me wrong. I'm aware I've a bit pushed my arguments but only to make them more clear. If the aim of Disco is some kind of balance, no player should be allowed to fly the ship you describe, in my opinion.
My 0.5 cents
Lump Lorry on behalf of the Lorry Family
_______________________________________________________________________________
(Former chars on Disco 4.82)-- The old Lorry Family --
Lump Lorry freelancer trader. chief of the Lorrys | Manta Lorry freelancer pilot | [HF] Cesare Lorry fighter pilot, HF member | sso|Ace Wolverine Lorry bounty hunter | [RM] M(anfred) Von Lorryhofen Rheinland Military pilot | [AEGIS] GB 303 Ticonderoga AEGIS artificial intelligence gunboat | (secret
member) In charge of keeping the family's secrets
Wait, Lorry I didn't understand half that. WHY would we need a rule prohibiting whatever it is your saying from attacking battleships or whatever? I don't even get what your saying in italicize.
Battleships are stronger than any other ships, but their 1500 cost will make them rare. Thus meaning there is no reason to make rules prohibiting it from attacking others (I'm gathering this from what you said, but again I think I misunderstood it).
The BS is supposed to be the god of gods in ships. The cruisers are supposed to be the less-expensive ones used for attacks, where the BS is primarily defense and sieges.
And your wrong about people not buying it. AW would have at least three. Mine, and the flagship, then Korrd's, and then Alpha's. I imagine the SF would also have 2-3. And I know Kreig's BS isn't going away.
Heck, nowadays I see more Corsair Dreadnaughts than any other capship outside of Cambridge (in there I see many Bret caps.. SF spams them..). This is because its a battleship, and because the targeting is so screwed up that people can't target it, making it extremely unbalanced. Increasing the cost would make these more specialized. Taking people a LONG time to get just one. Also, would make factions gain them faster, making them more powerful than normal solo-freelancers, AS THEY SHOULD BE.
' Wrote:Wait, Lorry I didn't understand half that. WHY would we need a rule prohibiting whatever it is your saying from attacking battleships or whatever? I don't even get what your saying in italicize.
And your wrong about people not buying it. AW would have at least three. Mine, and the flagship, then Korrd's, and then Alpha's. I imagine the SF would also have 2-3. And I know Kreig's BS isn't going away.
Hmm... Maybe I should clarify... I know that there are a lot of BS around. My point is... what is it likely to happen if we follow Korrd suggestion to make BS 10 or 50 times more powerfull? I my opinion if these GOD Battelships (proposed by Korrd) will appear, than two things will happen:
a) God Battleship will be so powerfull that we will need to multiply the rules to be applied in fighter vs BS fights. Otherwise (without new rules) the few owner of God BS will do whatever they want destroing the fun for everybody else.
b) Thus, to avoid fun distruction we will need to set up new Rules. It's very likely that since God BS will be incredibly costly and very limited by new rules, than very few players (and even factions) will find intersting to buy these God BS... at least from pragmatic point of view.
That's all... just my opinion of what it's likely to happen if BS will be modified following the direction suggested by Korrd. It's just my personal opinion about these ipotecal new BS... it might be right, it might be wrong. It has nothing to do with already existing BS.
Lump Lorry on behalf of the Lorry Family
_______________________________________________________________________________
(Former chars on Disco 4.82)-- The old Lorry Family --
Lump Lorry freelancer trader. chief of the Lorrys | Manta Lorry freelancer pilot | [HF] Cesare Lorry fighter pilot, HF member | sso|Ace Wolverine Lorry bounty hunter | [RM] M(anfred) Von Lorryhofen Rheinland Military pilot | [AEGIS] GB 303 Ticonderoga AEGIS artificial intelligence gunboat | (secret
member) In charge of keeping the family's secrets
The BS wasn't the only thing being upgraded. The cruiser was as well. Cruisers would still be very good. And as he said, 2-3 would be able to take down a battleship.
Plus, if someone is ranting around in a BS, another BS owner is likely to stop them.
Also, moving your one BS somewhere away from your faction's system would severely lower the defensibility of your fleet. Leaving the system open to being attacked by someone else's BS. A BS can kill anything else in this situation, yes. But you still have the option of retreating if your a lone cruiser against a BS. Heck, right now a lone cruiser can't beat a BS anyway.
' Wrote:Also, moving your one BS somewhere away from your faction's system would severely lower the defensibility of your fleet. Leaving the system open to being attacked by someone else's BS. A BS can kill anything else in this situation, yes. But you still have the option of retreating if your a lone cruiser against a BS. Heck, right now a lone cruiser can't beat a BS anyway.
Whatever... also the price of Cruisers would be increased and the power, too. So it would become much harder than now to buy a Cruiser. I mean... you've just added a layer to my argument but in its essence it remains unchanged. Anyway... you have your opinion... I have mine. I'm not very confident that you're right when you say that:
Quote:Plus, if someone is ranting around in a BS, another BS owner is likely to stop them.
We will see what it will happen. Since GOD BS and GOD cruisers does not yet exist I haven't much more to add.
My 0.0001 cent.
Lump Lorry on behalf of the Lorry Family
_______________________________________________________________________________
(Former chars on Disco 4.82)-- The old Lorry Family --
Lump Lorry freelancer trader. chief of the Lorrys | Manta Lorry freelancer pilot | [HF] Cesare Lorry fighter pilot, HF member | sso|Ace Wolverine Lorry bounty hunter | [RM] M(anfred) Von Lorryhofen Rheinland Military pilot | [AEGIS] GB 303 Ticonderoga AEGIS artificial intelligence gunboat | (secret
member) In charge of keeping the family's secrets
![[Image: 3cfefe54.jpg]](http://lordkorrd.dynalias.org/docs/misc/3cfefe54.jpg)
)
![[Image: DFinal.png]](http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/Luciaden/DFinal.png)