Isis needs a nerf...

[NonSequitor]

Leave the Isis as is. Sure it gets exploited and it's irritating, but you can't have everything. That said, the defenses of other stations and stationary BSes could be buffed. Dabadoru is sort of forlorn in this regard. Hiding within close proximity of that station won't help you much against a group of hostile, cap heavy forces (yes, that has happened).

And as far as station/stationary BSes go, it would be nice to see some better anti-aircraft capabilities. Fighters and bombers need that special lovin' too. Flying near a hostile base should be a breathtaking experience.

@Order players: Could you tell us who these Toledo campers are and what they're flying? There is currently at least 2 BHBS pilots that are on our "Dirt Nap" list. I'm curious to know if those two are amongst the campers. I would also like to know your definition of "camping" since anything larger than an Orca is going to have serious trouble surving near Toledo. Send the info via PM please.

And on another note, that wonderfully old fighter / capship debate - the everlasting struggle between the "skilled" players and the "noobs". The ancient conflict between the forces of "industrial-strength rp" and "rp-lite". In my opinion, both ship classes need skill to use with a measure of success - albeit some of the skill sets are different. No need painting everyone with a broad brush. Those who desire pvp above all things should learn to compromise and respect the game play of others. Those who are more deeply invested in role playing need to understand that not everyone has the time or talent to attain that level of rp they exercise.

BH caps in Omicron Minor: Why not? BH caps may be flown in rp throughout the Omicrons. So says the most sacred BH Guard ID.:yahoo:

As a parting "shot", a reminder to friend and foe alike about the BH gs since I've caught some flak from both sides in recent assaults: the gunship is made for taking out fighters and bombers. It is not invulnerable. It is not the "checkmate move". It's a dinky gunship with a pittance of armor and a relatively large side profile. So stop the hand wringing and play the game.

Thank you.

[ophidian]

1) Last night's Dabadoru bombardment and BHG retaliation event was a huge fun. I immediately sent Zapp a Kudos for their perfect RP retaliation after Deviator went down orbiting Isis.

Everything was going on real good. Fighters were battling and until a cap opened fire on a small craft, all caps of both sides holded in RP (friendly fire risk).

Bombardment of Dabadoru was an "instant planned RP" event that I usually conduct in Order space (and believe me, that strategy for the last three months has educated more players about RP than written rules or topics to be sincere).

I don't know if some things got out of control after I died but BHG holded for a long time in Minor after the main battle ended, perhaps some new players engaged but none of them was factionized, I remember most of the nicks. The "ISIS NERF" idea came from that attack probably. But, Tic, you attacked Isis AND A FLEET ORBITING IT. We attacked Dabadoru, knowing that none of the Hunters were around over a Zoner spy (yes, real in game PM'ing RP that was). And we got 2 of your caps, you got several of our caps. It was a major fun RP vs Fleet battle event.

2) Global -> Corsair aid is welcome and we were calling for aid several months ago however, there was a problem we couldn't overcome. When we called for aid, you were coming from 3-4 systems away (Gamma) and by the time you were there, either the battle had new odds or the enemy was halfway gone. Then it was turning out to be a massacre since most of the corsair players were angry coming all the way from Gamma. And we cannot inform, PM, while being attacked. So we decided to slow down the Corsair Order aid pace. We still send reinforcements if Gamma calls but the distance usually changes things. Same happened vice-versa to Order against a Keeper Gamma raid as well.

3) Tena, please don't.

4) Megiddo -> The problem is, at least for me, when I am around as Ophidian or Deviator, no Order or BHG acts weird in Toledo so I think things are normal. Then I leave a few systems or quit game, and voila, the Skype is full of moaning and whinning about bad things happening on both ends. Either some of the faction key figures (BHG / Order / Corsair etc, replace any faction) have a "constructive" real time effect or I am rather lucky on my part.

5) If you have any nerfing / evolving the BHG Order war ideas, please share rather than flamethrowing.


With sincere regards.

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[Tic]

First of all, this is not the 'i can't camp Toledo' thread, this is about Order having easy way out of any dangerous situation in Minor, leaving the oponent option to wait until you call in more people or run..

Then, as i said, put BHG BS next to Dabadoru, give it the same firepower. Everyone cries and complains when Toledo gets camped, but when i undock from Dabadoru in my Manta to find 2 Osirises and 3 Corsair lolcruisers camping 500m from the dock, while Dabadoru can't even scratch them, screaming "OI LOOKIE teh bHg PWNPWNPWN!1!1!", it's all okay.

All i wanted here is for Isis to be normal, or at least a bit stronger then other BSs, but this is just, as Mike said, madness. You can't come within 3k of it and survive, regardless what ship you are flying in.

And Rand, about yesterdays fight...

You attacked Dabadoru, then retreated to Minor. A force of 5 bombers, GS and BC followed you. You all, even then outnubering us, having a player Osiris, just sat at Isis, making us unable to do anything. Then, even hough you overpowered us, you waited until 3 more Recon cruisers and few smaller craft showed up. At that time you outnumbered us 4 to 1 with firepower. 24 to 1 if we count in the Isis. And any time one of you lost shield or got a bit damaged you ran straight back to Isis, conviniently returning after we were forced to switch targets.

The problem here is that once you retreat to Isis, we can't touch you. While when a BH retreats to Dabadoru or Rostock, you are free to attack because those bases defenses are worthless. Only good thing is that now and then one Pulse from them manages to hit a gunboat or something bigger.

[NonSequitor]

A good, "realistic", fair option would be to give Daba a stationary BS. Christen it the BHG Deus ex Machina or some such.

Failing that, pump some "insta-vape" into the station defenses.

Then there's another option that doesn't requiring any modding...

@Tic: I have in PM correspondence with an active player on the Order side. We've been throwing around ideas for a "safety" radius around Toledo and Daba. He (Rouge) has suggested that 8k around Toledo would be a fair radius. I'm waiting for him to talk to other leading Order players in order to find a consensus. Once they decide, we could suggest a similar radius around Daba.

And for the record, he and Swiss are not amused by Order players camping Daba. We have been asked to contact them in game if such activity is going on.

[Derkylos]

Just for reference:

Hidden deep inside Palau Cloud, Dabadoru Station construction has completed in the end of 816 A.S. It provides safe haven, repairs and supplies for Bounty Hunters operating in the Nomad Worlds. Location within an asteroid field ensures that this station is safe from Corsair and Nomad capital ships that frequent Omicron Delta.

No one should be bringing caps within the field around the station...

(also, note, should be "Dabadoru station construction was completed at the end of...")

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[Dashiell]

well, seems there`s some constructivity flowing out all of this. just some thigs I`d like to say:

1 the so often called BHG lolcaps camping Toledo. where? who? and especially WHEN? I play at variable times and I have yet to see the first BHG BS camp toledo. then we look at dabadoru. that thing needs a flyswatter the size of Texas to get rid of all the Osirisses, cruisers, carriers and gbs camping it. please note that the corsies are also at fault. call me biased, but that`s what I`ve seen past weeks.

BHG camping: 0
Corsie/Order camping: 4

now, I`m not gonna point fingers. that serves no purpose. nor can people control everything other (indie) players do. so no blame there.

2 Leave Isis as it is. sure, the Order loves to cuddle up under that thing. let em. what would you do when facing irradication? I`d hide under Big Mama anyday.

just don`t do it when a fun fight is about to break loose. that`s just a wasted chance for some proper fun. rp underneath Isis, then come out for the fight. not very realistic, but more fun for both sides I think. unless having the Isis eradicate all intruders is considered fun by Order players.

3 the age old cap-argument again. caps are bad. caps can`t do anything because they ruin the game. caps are for pvp whores.

pschaw. I`ll take a proper cap fight over a dogfight anyday, and especially anywhere. much more fun end far more awesome to look at even after you blow up. and you can rp better in a cap too I feel. take (smaller) caps to home systems, just don`t overkill or act like a nitwit. common sense, people
mixed fleet fights are AWESOME even in home space. all it takes is some common sense of both parties and a sense of fairplay.

4 dabadoru should have a stationary bs yeah. why? because Daba is hardly "secret". even the bloody paperboy knows where it is. daba`s secresy is NO defence at all. give it the old model Mako, armed to the teeth with Melting Rays and speakers blaring Golden Earring music as stationary defense. Gives Core some safety as well.

so:

- don`t nerf Isis
- don`t missuse Isis
- stop the bloody whining about caps
- use common sense. just don`t do things to other players that you wouldn`t want to happen to yourself.

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[khran]

I think it's caused by dozens of player controlled ships + Xfire video recording, rather than projectiles.
Edit: Nope, it's not just Isis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vTuqzT36DY
Edit2: The quality here was screwed by WMM, I needed to connect 4 separate vids. HQ button is already there tho.

This is what ALL battles should look like. :yahoo:

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Just as we reap the golden wheat, must we also cut free of the chains! [eS]

[Magoo!]

I know I'm eight pages late, and judging by some of these post lengths, I'll leave the unknown... Unknown, so excuse any repition.

I do know that by RP Isis should be uber, but this is just crazy... No other stationary battleship has this kind of power, so i don't know why Isis should. Also no other faction has something like this to use for cover.

HA! OH... Dear. Have you even looked at BS MacDuff wrong outside of Harris? That thing nukes you. Mississipi nukes you. Missouri nukes you.

In short (I've said that two posts in a row now) they're all like that.

-Removed for relavence-

-Edit- Alright, and about there being a bunch of lulwutting Corsair/Order (cap)ships outside Dabadoru... The BHG is what made cap ships cliche - not to mention lolwutting. "Zomg, i flai all cross Srs to pwn teh pirtz!" My point is, don't complain about when a small group of people make the Order look bad when your predecessors made the BHG a joke and anybody with a ship larger than a Manta was considered an idiot.

-Double Edit- Ah yes! This lad summed it up rather well,

- don`t nerf Isis
- don`t missuse Isis
- stop the bloody whining about caps
- use common sense. just don`t do things to other players that you wouldn`t want to happen to yourself.

[ophidian]

And Rand, about yesterdays fight...

You attacked Dabadoru, then retreated to Minor. A force of 5 bombers, GS and BC followed you.

It was the RP, I guess I have screenshots (if I am not mistaken). RP was to hit and run while no battleships or bombers were around. If we were to overdose you, we would stop, turn around, and vaporize you all. Sorry, its not about overseeing or being snobish or something, I beg you, please don't get me wrong, BUT while in an Osiris, the only pilot in that fleet that made me afraid was Esther / Zapp. So, it was the RP, actually we were hoping none of you would show up and we would post some RP screenshots here that Order retaliated etc, like the one we did in 56.

You all, even then outnubering us, having a player Osiris, just sat at Isis, making us unable to do anything.

Wrong. Osiris (ME) sat near Isis because your caps were weaker than it so I didn't engage, let the fighters do the battle. I even rp'ed that as a risk of Friendly fire and your cap ships did the same RP. So, this is a false / wrong accusition, no backbone, no reality. I entered battle AFTER one of the BHG caps started firing on a fighter. I took it as a green light for capital ship battling. If I was wrong, whatever, sorry for that but I don't think so.

Then, even hough you overpowered us, you waited until 3 more Recon cruisers and few smaller craft showed up. At that time you outnumbered us 4 to 1 with firepower. 24 to 1 if we count in the Isis. And any time one of you lost shield or got a bit damaged you ran straight back to Isis, conviniently returning after we were forced to switch targets.

If it was shieldrunning, how the heck we lost an Osiris and several other crafts. Isis did a good job, its true and no one denies that. But believe me, if it was shield running, none of you would be able to get an Osiris down while Isis was firing on you and the Osiris as well. Some smaller craft perhaps did it, BUT when you are fighting near a base of your enemy, its normal for them to use the base as a strategic element. Half of the BHG (and Order does too since its kind of a trend) runs to FP 11 NFZ most of the time. Its not bad then and its bad NOW? Please be objective. If you can't, please forward your concerns to someone who can objectively debate on those and suggest here. Isis is overpowered, right, but nerfing that is something else, accusing people about using that is something else.

The problem here is that once you retreat to Isis, we can't touch you. While when a BH retreats to Dabadoru or Rostock, you are free to attack because those bases defenses are worthless. Only good thing is that now and then one Pulse from them manages to hit a gunboat or something bigger.

Answered above. BHG's main tactic in battles (again, not all) in Delta is NOT Dabadoru but FP11. NFZ is another form of strategy. I support THAT as well, as I support the tactical usage of Isis. But if you whine about Isis, then whine about you using FP 11 as well. Be objective. Over biased opinions are unhealthy for our community on all sides.

- don`t nerf Isis
- don`t missuse Isis
- stop the bloody whining about caps
- use common sense. just don`t do things to other players that you wouldn`t want to happen to yourself.

So true.


Caps are necessary. Of course you will see a full cap force within the home system of an enemy. Also, there IS NOTHING WRONG in seeing a cap fleet in 56 or orbiting Dabadoru in my humble, tiny little opinion if in RP those stations are sufficient to give services to the fleet ships.


Reaven's idea was nice. Sure, nerf Isis but put the initial Isis kinda BS to the enterance of Minor. Or, please give the RP reason to have Isis / Minor gone and believe me I will be one of the first to jump on it and evolve a new line around it.

However, we die, you die, people die in PvP. It is a fact, no one can win every darn battle on FL.

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[tazuras]

Basically, my thoughts on this is, if you cont like indy order hiding behind the issis, dont fight in minro, make them come to you. This seems more in RP anyway, as I dont think the BHG would get anywhere near toledo unless they were en masse, and by this i mean at least 5 BS's, 4 cruisers, half dozen GB's, and a full wing of fighters and bombers.

As for dabadoru, sure, give it more defensive capability if it is being camped, or you can start filling sanction reports if it is really bad, it is against the rules after all. I think this would be better if it is concluded the RP should remain that daba is hidden. If the RP change to that is has been discovered, well, then may be stationary BS time.

I would also like to echo what someone (i dont remember who) in that retreating (as in, to the issis) is not necessarily OORP. Retreat is a perfectly valid and logical tactic if it will help you save lives and valuable equipment without risking losing the war. If it's a last stand, fine, dont retreat, but i dont think the RP for the order/BHG war is quite to that point yet.

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