Enough nerfing - give us back some decent ships

[reavengitair]

Seriously, in the end, BHG have loads of members. The order are meant to have the best ships.

So the BHG can start ganking.

and by the way, you FORGOT to add the fighters and bombers! compare their stats! BHG ships are superagile!

[Montezuma/Kukulcan]

Yes, BHG bomber>all other bombers, plus the manta is one of the best fighters around, so this might be a tradeoff (BHG BS still deserves a slight buff, or at least a fixed hitbox).

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[X-Lancer]

hmm..dont forget to mention

BHG Bomber compare to Order Bomber, BHG Bomber can almost use as a fighter while Order Bomber is a giant block, and cannot fight as a fighter, that WILL make a difference in fleet combat. look at BHG GS compare to Order GB, same thing, BHG GS can totally pwn an Order GB cuz it's agility, and can dodge bomber SNAC easier.

BHG has advantage over Order on GB, Bomber, and Cruiser. But Order has advantage over BHG on Battleship and BC.

fair enough to me

[Violette]

hmm..dont forget to mention

BHG Bomber compare to Order Bomber, BHG Bomber can almost use as a fighter while Order Bomber is a giant block, and cannot fight as a fighter, that WILL make a difference in fleet combat. look at BHG GS compare to Order GB, same thing, BHG GS can totally pwn an Order GB cuz it's agility, and can dodge bomber SNAC easier.

BHG has advantage over Order on GB, Bomber, and Cruiser. But Order has advantage over BHG on Battleship and BC.

fair enough to me

/Signed

It's pretty balanced actually, but some changes would be welcome...

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[Tenacity]

And Tena, the reason I included the ships I did is because in our little cap battle today - 3 Makos, 3 Bullheads, 1 Orca against 2 Osiris, 4 Geb, and 1 Resheph - the BHG| was outnumbered and outgunned before the event ever started - because the Order Light Carrier is balanced to go up against Battleships - NOT battlecruisers.

No, it isnt. The Light Carrier cannot hold it's ground against -any- battleship in the game. Even with an optimal anti-battleship setup, the carrier will never win with equal numbers present. It's only defense in that situation is to run.

What killed you was most likely focused fire or disorganization, not the balancing of any one ship (other than the mako having a huge hitbox right now).

The Light Carrier is designed to overpower and destroy every battlecruiser or cruiser in the mod, and it does that job well, but it doesnt stand a chance in hell against any battleship pilot that isnt completely retarded. I can down a battleship shield, and scratch the hull a bit, before going through all of my regens and dying to the battleship's fire, but even two carriers against one decent BS will not stand much of a chance at winning.

Geb (light) cruiser: Tenacity's gonna shoot mah face, but I think it should lose the BS shield. As it is now, a Geb eats BH BCs for breakfast, lunch and dinner. If it loses the BS shield, it will be at a distinct disadvantage, but in rp, it's a support ship not intended to spearhead assaults. Maybe as an "equalizer" it can get a massive hull increase. Don't kill me, Tenny.

*shoots megiddo in the face*

I argued for weeks straight that the Carrier needed more survivability against other caps, and the BS shield was the answer, dont go taking it away now.

Face it, the Carrier is going to kill any other battlecruiser it comes up against, that's really the only thing it excels at though. Despite the BS shield it still cannot stand up against more than one half-skilled bomber at a time, and it still cannot stand up to any battleship in the game. Hell, even the full solaris-turreted osiris would probably kick my carrier's arse.

The only way I'm going to accept having the bs shield removed is if the ship's size gets cut in half and it gets a manuverability increase. Right now the carrier is -larger- than the osiris battleship, with less hull, far less firepower despite 18 turrets (18 cruiser turrets is equal to MAYBE 7 or 8 battleship turrets, but dont lose sight of the fact that the carrier only has a max of 10 turrets that fire forward, and less in every other direction).

The ship is too large for cruiser class point defense weapons to function properly, and it actually has worse turning than the Osiris, despite larger size.

Or perhaps you all would like for the ship to actually be able to fulfill it's function and launch swarms of fighters and bombers after you, let's see who complains about overpoweredness then...

I agree with megiddo, the geb should loose its BS sheild, and perhaps have a hull buff, as with the powerplant, a cruiser can barely lower its sheild before being leveled by tripple mortars. Imo, not how it should be, the 18 guns are enough, thats 6 more than the nearest cruiser, or BHG BC.

Quite obvious you have no experience with the ship.

Hull strength is worthless IMO, the second my shields go down even a light fighter can keep my screen so ****ed up that I cant hit a battleship at point blank range. Perhaps you geniuses can figure out how to reduce the screen shake against capship hull, then having an extra 100k armor might be worth losing a better shield.

The Carrier has the same powerplant as every other battlecruiser in the game, and it's more than twice as large as any other BC. Perhaps you should consider that before asking that it's powerplant get nerfed, what the hell do you want me to be, a giant target? Not happening.

Yes, it has 18 turrets, but compared to cruisers... wait, why the hell are we trying to compare a battlecruiser to a cruiser again? Dont be an idiot.

Yes, it has 6 more than the BHBC, but the BHBC, along with every other battlecruiser in the game, has two battleship turrets and the ability to fire BS razors for point defense (1800m/s projectile speed) or mortars/battleship pulses for heavier anticap ability. The Carrier is stuck to pure cruiser turrets, most of which are ineffective for defending it from assault by smaller or larger craft. In short, the carrier is nothing but a pulse and mortar platform, beyond that it's defenseless.

I freaking hate people that try to compare one thing to another but dont consider every detail involved, you're making yourself look like a preschool dropout.



As far as the BH gunship, I'd say give it 5 forward firing guns (remove the two rear hardpoints, put one hardpoint directly underneath the forward portion of the ship), and make them forward-only so it has no rear defense. Would fit the design scheme of BH ships and make it slightly more effective for assaults.

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[tansytansey]

Now we see why the Capwhorage is no longer with the bounty hunters, and people are complaining about the Order.

If I were you, I'd be saying "better them than us" and bring in the bombers.

Look at Liberty, it's the exact same. Last version, there were hundreds of Rogue Gunboats, this version we have the Outcast Gunship, and everyone goes "omglolgunshipwith8turrets!" and now we have very few Battlebarges. And I say... better them than us. At least I have a reason to kill Outcast idiots, it's a lot harder to kill Rogue idiots.

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Image turned into a URL because it made your sig too tall. -Zuke
|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes "Nighthawk" Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[binTowers]

Bounty hunters have ridiculously good fighter weapons, they also have light fighter, heavy fighter, VHF and bomber. Which are all good. They have a choice between 2 gunboats.

Order has average fighter weapons, no light fighter, no heavy fighter, two VHF which both are sucky, and one of the worst bombers. And 1 gunboat.

I see huge advantage on BH side here. So whatever problems there are with above gunboat BHG caps, they should stay. If there are any...

[Tenacity]

Bounty hunters have ridiculously good fighter weapons, they also have light fighter, heavy fighter, VHF and bomber. Which are all good. They have a choice between 2 gunboats.

Order has average fighter weapons, no light fighter, no heavy fighter, two VHF which both are sucky, and one of the worst bombers. And 1 gunboat.

I see huge advantage on BH side here. So whatever problems there are with above gunboat BHG caps, they should stay. If there are any...

exactly right. The BHG falls short when it comes to capital ship warfare, The Order excels at capship warfare. The BHG excels at fighter/bomber/gunboat combat, the Order fails at it. Balanced IMO.

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[NonSequitor]

I'll decrypt it for you:

Now, that we are clear... The GS would mostly gain the chance to have a more universal loadout from having 6 forward-facing turrets. It would also get an increase in firepower. Especially for short-time bursts, not that much in sustained firepower. What's most important, it doesn't need it all. It's already an excellent ship.

(Oh, and I own one as well. I don't really own in it, but that's just my lacking GB skills. I'm decent though.)

I don't have Datastorm installed on my comp anymore nor do I remember the size of the gs's power plant. If I recall correctly, it's the smallest one available, which makes sense. I have a hunch that if you go all Solaris turrets, or get all carried away with missile turrets, you'll have serious power management issues. It would have to be tested. Five forward firing turrets would be a decent compromise, because four is real anemic.

The BH GS is an excellent ship, but very inflexible. It deserves a little more flexibility, without making it into an unbalanced nightmare. If anything, nix the Orca (big ol' SNAC magnet) in order to justify making the gs a tad more flexible. Thanks for the translation - I was tired and was having trouble parsing his syntax. If he wanted to brag, he could have used a clearer expression.

@Tenacity: Funny how buckshot in the face improves one's long-term memory. But yeah, I do remember the Geb-buffing discussions during the first weeks of the new mod. Maybe if the Geb had started out as an honest BC there would have been less controversy. Right now it's sort of hybrid - somewhere between a light BS and a heavy BC. I see two solutions: Make it into a full-fledged light BS, along the lines of the the Zoner Aquilon carrier or shrink it, take some hardpoints off, give it a cruiser shield and make it into a true BC.

[Tenacity]

I see two solutions: Make it into a full-fledged light BS, along the lines of the the Zoner Aquilon carrier or shrink it, take some hardpoints off, give it a cruiser shield and make it into a true BC.

I dont see why we need to do either, right now the ship is fine. It kills other BC's, it gets killed by battleships, it has a simple job to do and it does that job well.

If you make it into a battleship you have to remove the thruster, which is where 80% of it's survivability still lies. The shield and armor only do so much, it's the ability to get away from more heavily armed enemies that let it survive.

Plus, if they turn it into a battleship, that means I need a battleship license, and I cant even afford half of that license right now.

EDIT:

Of course, if they want to make it a battleship, buff it's armor, give it 12-14 class 10 turrets so it can use bs weapons, a light bs powerplant like the osiris, and give me a free battleship license, then I'll be fine with that idea =P

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