Alright, as the developer of Oki I'll give my opinions on this;
Yes, I have said GMG were in debt to Interspace, but I did not mean that they were in debt in the way where they have to make regular payments for a loan. Interspace financed the building of Okinawa. GMG set up its design according to the one given to IC to approve of (this isn't written in RP, but implied, as IC would never agree to finance a system-wide construction effort without having some kind of written design plan), and then gave IC the monthly/yearly/whatever period expense report, at which time IC would then pay those bills, sans any expenses resulting from something being done that was not a part of the approved plan.
The "debt" GMG owes is that they must give IC a 5% cut of their H-fuel profits. Yes they are in "debt", but the way of paying it was decided on before construction began. There is no total sum they have to reach to "pay it all off". It's an indefinite cut of the profits from H-fuel sales made from the Okinawa clouds. Note the word indefinite. This is the loan's principle, plus interest. It is what allows IC to continue to make profits from their investment. I chose this instead of a simple loan that must be paid off with interest, because the construction of an entire system is a MASSIVE investment with a LOT of risk. As such, Interspace is going to want a kind of payment that would be in line with the amount of risk they take in financing. In the long term, a cut of H-fuel sales for the rest of Okinawa's lifetime of mining, the ability to set up their own station in Okinawa, and the ability to hold H-fuel on their station, as well as ship it, was a better profit than getting their loan repaid in plain credit form.
Personally I would see Interspace valuing their station in Okinawa above their cut of the H-fuel. IC| can of course see it differently. However, I imagine the station as a sort of free-trade port in Okinawa. Fujisawa is for H-fuel. Isehara is for terraforming and holding mined Plutonium (it's a factory in .86, so it retains a specialized purpose). Furyoku is the only station that doesn't have a specific purpose, which makes it more suited to be able to handle the importation, distribution, and storage of all other commodities. GMG personnel have to eat, where does that food come from? Probably Furyoku. If Okinawa is the Omicrons, Furyoku is Freeport 9. It's in the middle (and is in the middle of the system, with great market location), it handles all sorts of commodities, it handles storage, services, bars, entertainment for the system's residents, etc.
Hope this helps clear up some questions.
Note to IC: Holding GMG in default doesn't really work. However, closing Furyoku to GMG pilots and other personnel, could really hurt their morale in-RP. Fujisawa is a mining and military base. It certainly doesn't have a lot of entertainment. It'd also allow you to prevent the GMG from getting food and other commodities from you, making it much more expensive to have it imported from long distances in smaller amounts (they lack the pure storage room of Furyoku), and more often. It'll hurt your financially as well, but it'd hurt them more.
' Wrote:Otherwise, Interspace Commerce is still entitled to take its 5% cut. If the Kusari blockade means that profits are zero, then 5% of zero is, well you can do the math...
Your maths work well.
However, I believe when IC and GMG made that deal, GMG was supposed to sell H-Fuel. Instead, they started a conflict, or got into a conflict (so we don't have grammar discussions) and they are not selling H-Fuel anymore.
The GMG must sell H-Fuel to uphold their aggrement with IC, and IC leaders have their right to claim that to GMG.
Your maths work well, but don't get so cocky, commercial agreements are not simple maths, and I'm not an expect on the subject, and not even close to one, but even I can see if GMG stops selling H-Fuel, they are not fulfilling their agreement.
The deal is 5% of H-fuel sold, but surely there's a minimum they must reach. I don't want to sound cocky, because I'd be committing the same mistake as you, so I'll repeat myself, commercial agreements are more complicated that simple maths (you) and economy 101 (me).
GMG is not deciding not to sell H-fuel. In fact, they still are selling H-fuel, Kusari is trying to stop them, but has yet to succeed in that. To say that GMG is not selling any H-fuel right now is complete crap Casero, and you know it.
Now, since GMG is not deciding not to sell H-fuel, it's an external group forcing it on them, GMG is in no way violating their contract.
International law sides with GMG on this one, not IC.
This move is not intended to financially hurt or to hurt in any way the Gas Miner's Guild, it's got nothing to do with seizing the system for realz, or with hurting the GMG, or whatnot.
Rather, since Kusari no longer acknowledges the Guild's authority, it's about restoring a semblance of lawfulness to a warzone and allowing free trade to Furyoku and Isehara to reinforce the GMG financially and economically by endrunning the Kusari embargo and whatnot and attempting to con the Emperor.
Unfortunately, this plan will no doubt now fail, as I failed to communicate to the parties involved the exact reasoning behind this declaration.
FU.
gone four years, first day back: Zoners still getting shot in Theta :|
Sorry, what international laws?
What's the minimum they must reach?
Is the contract 5 lines long as it was showed in those quotes?
As I said, I'm not a master on this, and GMG probably still sell H-Fuel, not through Honshu of course. But are they reaching the minimum? If so, isn't IC allowed to claim?
More than that, if Darth talked with the GMG players about it, is it wrong? That's the way the GMG-Kusari conflict started, by an OORP agreement between players. Yes, there are flaws, IC can easyly state that the GMG sells didn't reach the minimum.
The GMG is not deciding to sell fuel you say, but, I wonder if they thought Kusari will allow them to sell Fuel through Honshu once they started shooting Kusarians, and I wonder if that's not in IC's minds right now. You said they didn't decide it, but they kinda forced it, again by agreement between players.
There are flaws, but nothing that couldn't be worked out just fine, which is what is needed, instead of a huge "NO U" to the IC for trying to open the Okinawa gate in honshu to traders.
Wanna get deeper in arguing about the contract, show a contract then, right now, arguing about it is pointless, and it doesn't exist, and the dev team, you included, didn't see this coming, now it's a bit late to bring a shinny contract to justify your points, Dab.
There are no international laws, there are no contracts, there is nothing writen, but a few rumors, demanding the IC to show those things that we all know don't exist to justify something they agreed with the factions involved in the conflict, well that's crap as well, don't you think?
Indeed. Though unfortunately, at least Kiretsu would've probably cut off from IC even if you had clearly declared your intentions. I was talking about it last weekend. IC isn't really trying to support, aid, etc the GC at all anymore (mentioned that in my post). Sort of a "you either stick to your commitments, or we make you feel what Samura feels."
' Wrote:Sorry, what international laws?
What's the minimum they must reach?
Is the contract 5 lines long as it was showed in those quotes?
As I said, I'm not a master on this, and GMG probably still sell H-Fuel, not through Honshu of course. But are they reaching the minimum? If so, isn't IC allowed to claim?
What minimum? By not having a minimum, GMG can ensure the IC do their best to keep Okinawa productive. It's GMG's security that IC will not try to impede them.
' Wrote:More than that, if Darth talked with the GMG players about it, is it wrong? That's the way the GMG-Kusari conflict started, by an OORP agreement between players. Yes, there are flaws, IC can easyly state that the GMG sells didn't reach the minimum.
I don't know if he talked to them or not. You're not paying attention to my posts though. I don't care if Darth made his RP. He has every right to. The only problems I have are in-roleplay, and I've already done the RP posts concerning it. I gave my opinions here because several people asked for them.
' Wrote:The GMG is not deciding to sell fuel you say, but, I wonder if they thought Kusari will allow them to sell Fuel through Honshu once they started shooting Kusarians, and I wonder if that's not in IC's minds right now. You said they didn't decide it, but they kinda forced it, again by agreement between players.
Again; Kusari is TRYING to stop them from selling it. GMG is still getting that fuel out though. GC take it from GMG to Bretonia, and to the Outcasts. GMG also smuggles it out. GMG knows where the JHs are, the Naval Forces don't. This was already said.
' Wrote:There are flaws, but nothing that couldn't be worked out just fine, which is what is needed, instead of a huge "NO U" to the IC for trying to open the Okinawa gate in honshu to traders.
No one is giving the IC a NO U. No one is angry at IC. Friday posted concerning how IC set up some of their RP. They were setting up a contract that is not fully written anywhere, okay. Fine. However, some of what they used contradicted lore. I don't care about minimum or no minimum. IC said GMG had a loan to repay and had defaulted on it, and that part only is what we're concerned with, as it contradicts the lore that is there. The stuff they make up is fine as long as it doesn't contradict anything. It's that one part that does contradict that is what people are concerned about. NOT angry about.
' Wrote:Wanna get deeper in arguing about the contract, show a contract then, right now, arguing about it is pointless, and it doesn't exist, and the dev team, you included, didn't see this coming, now it's a bit late to bring a shinny contract to justify your points, Dab.
The contract is there. In clear, written wording, no. But part of what the contract (that the player factions could write up between them) has in it IS expressed. The important part; IC finances the construction of the system, in return for a 5% cut of the profits, permission to set up a base, and permission to store and haul H-fuel. This is the basis of the contract. That contract IS there. It's not something I just made up once this situation started. It's been there since .85 has existed. (Technically since BEFORE.) The exact wording and minor parts of the contract can be filled in by the player factions.
' Wrote:There are no international laws, there are no contracts, there is nothing writen, but a few rumors, demanding the IC to show those things that we all know don't exist to justify something they agreed with the factions involved in the conflict, well that's crap as well, don't you think?
I know a lot of factions and house government leaders consider current RL international laws as still in effect in Sirius. While IC may claim that they aren't, those that DO support those international laws can still try to take action against someone breaking them.
No one is demanding IC to show anything. I don't know what your argument here is. People are saying that one part of IC's posts (the part about GMG defaulting) does not fit what lore does exist. That's all there is to it.
I haven't really been sure how to support the GC without exposing Interspace to risk. Unless you guys need loans or something, or funding.
I suppose we could trade to GC bases on untagged transports.
As for contradicting lore, i just assumed their was also a loan component. Let's retcon my ignorance as a bald-faced lie.
EDIT: As for house governments believing international laws still in effect......not really.
There are dozens of instances of Disco governments openly violating current reallife international law.
The last one i can think of was the lawsuit i brought against whatshisname that was dismissed despite my actual reference of EU law.
gone four years, first day back: Zoners still getting shot in Theta :|
' Wrote:I haven't really been sure how to support the GC without exposing Interspace to risk. Unless you guys need loans or something, or funding.
I suppose we could trade to GC bases on untagged transports.
Well for this, I'll think of something after the current conflict is over. Right now we wouldn't want your transports anywhere near us, in-RP.
' Wrote:EDIT: As for house governments believing international laws still in effect......not really.
There are dozens of instances of Disco governments openly violating current reallife international law.
The last one i can think of was the lawsuit i brought against whatshisname that was dismissed despite my actual reference of EU law.
Countries will often ignore international laws, agreements, alliances, etc when it suits them.
As for your example, I ain't got a clue which one you're referring to, you'd have to be more specific.
' Wrote:"And I almost forgot.. What kind of international law are you using to justify this move?
IN RP, Fine. Your character (god knows her) is trying to put some pressure, or is just curious about some international laws that no one ever heard about, but might exist. It's fine.
' Wrote:International law sides with GMG on this one, not IC.
You commenting on the IC Feedback thread that international laws side with GMG. So, what international laws?
' Wrote:What minimum? By not having a minimum, GMG can ensure the IC do their best to keep Okinawa productive.
It's GMG's security that IC will not try to impede them.
I don't know if he talked to them or not. You're not paying attention to my posts though. I don't care if Darth made his RP. He has every right to. The only problems I have are in-roleplay, and I've already done the RP posts concerning it. I gave my opinions here because several people asked for them.
Again; Kusari is TRYING to stop them from selling it. GMG is still getting that fuel out though. GC take it from GMG to Bretonia, and to the Outcasts. GMG also smuggles it out. GMG knows where the JHs are, the Naval Forces don't. This was already said.
No one is giving the IC a NO U. No one is angry at IC. Friday posted concerning how IC set up some of their RP. They were setting up a contract that is not fully written anywhere, okay. Fine. However, some of what they used contradicted lore. I don't care about minimum or no minimum. IC said GMG had a loan to repay and had defaulted on it, and that part only is what we're concerned with, as it contradicts the lore that is there. The stuff they make up is fine as long as it doesn't contradict anything. It's that one part that does contradict that is what people are concerned about. NOT angry about.
The contract is there. In clear, written wording, no. But part of what the contract (that the player factions could write up between them) has in it IS expressed. The important part; IC finances the construction of the system, in return for a 5% cut of the profits, permission to set up a base, and permission to store and haul H-fuel. This is the basis of the contract. That contract IS there. It's not something I just made up once this situation started. It's been there since .85 has existed. (Technically since BEFORE.) The exact wording and minor parts of the contract can be filled in by the player factions.
I know a lot of factions and house government leaders consider current RL international laws as still in effect in Sirius. While IC may claim that they aren't, those that DO support those international laws can still try to take action against someone breaking them.
So GMG could simply made the deal, and stop selling Fuel if they decided to shut down everything, giving a lot of loses to IC? Brillant move for IC leaders. A contract for a percentage of a sell with no minimum is very risky, with the HUGE amount of money IC invested on Okinawa, I'd believe they at least demanded a minimum to fulfil, bringing up this point is like bringing up some international laws, don't you think? It looks dumb to argue about something that doesn't exist, I do kinda fail with this, because I'm contradicting myself, you can't argue about things that doesn't exist, otherwise, the first one to call it is the winner, aka international laws, aka minimum.
Bindo's mistake was typing "loan" instead of "not selling enough fuel".
Also, I'm not saying KNF is stopping all the GMG sells, what I'm saying is that the sells that used to move through the Honshu gate are now stopped, of course, in RP, both parties agreed on that by their actions.
If through unlawful factions or through jump holes they still sell fuel in the same level, is up to discussion, I personally doubt that the GMG is selling at the same rate that without the embargo. Also, GMG knows the Jump Holes, the outcasts know them too, the corsairs know them too, the hogosha, the farmers, the list goes on, jump holes are not a secured lane though.
Quote:No one is demanding IC to show anything. I don't know what your argument here is. People are saying that one part of IC's posts (the part about GMG defaulting) does not fit what lore does exist. That's all there is to it.
That's not what I can tell from your IN RP post in the IC communication, call me biased, but I won't believe it's just a coincidence that you mention those international laws here and there. Sorry but no, that's demanding them to show those laws, or to obey them. I'd even dare to say powergaming, but I don't want to be crucified, it's not easter anymore.
But meh, wanna be right? Ok, you are right. You know you shouldn't try to convince me.