Zoners

[Doc Holliday]

Been reading through this thread where I can and respect the many thoughts in it. I'm just going to add my 2 cents in.

Zoners have proven twice now that a central Zoner government doesn't work. The Council of Zoners (CoZ) and the Zoner Alliance (ZA) only created more problems. I'll elaborate on the why as I go along.
Zoner groups have their own RP based on location. For example, the late Zoner Trading Consortium and now the Pheonix make their homes in Omicron 74. Their RP is predominantly the Corsairs and to some extent, the Outcasts. They often found themselves trapped in the middle of their conflict, facing demands made of each and if they didn't comply, the shooting began.
That said, TAZ has little contact with the Corsairs but much with the Outcasts. If there is a central body with one set of rules, all Zoners would suffer even though they don't live close to it.

Zoners are individuals for the most part, living far away from house space, willing to live where most won't. They've learned to get along with everyone regardless of what side of the law you're on. I RP this best I can. The RP seems to come from Houses who have decided to encroach upon where they moved to in order to avoid house laws. Bretonia always laying claims to Freeport 1, both Liberty and Rheinland laying claims on Freeport 2 and Kusari laying claims to Freeport 6, all of the borderworlds in which they live once unclaimed territory. For me, it's a challenge.

As to getting rid of cap ships, this debate is old. People say "perhaps if you got rid of them people wouldn't bully you." To this I say horse hockey!!! I know as a "bully" that if the less someone has to protect themselves, the more apt I am to push them."
People say cap ships aren't Zoner lore. Read up on the Nephilim or the late Jinkusu. They were build as colony ships for deep exploration. It's not my fault or that of any other good RPing Zoner that some people choose to use them as offensive weapons.
I personally believe in the old philosophy that "if you want peace, prepare for war." That doesn't mean that I go looking for one but I'm not going to be pushed either.

And of course we have those in server who feel that Zoners MUST have enemies. They are just war mongers IMO. They look for the simplest of excuses to justify an RP. "Well, this Zoner group did nothing when I was being shot at" is one I remember. Excuse me for playing Zoner lore. I'm sure those war mongers have plenty of people that will fight them and are tagged and lored to do so.

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[MFE]Med Force One | Tales of Recovery|Med Force Enterprises

[Druen78]

Random idea: remove the unified Zoner ID, and instead add local Zoner IDs. Like "Omega Zoner ID" and "Omicron Zoner ID", or maybe "Freeport XX Zoner ID". It would maybe make easier to differentiate Zoner diplomacies. So if Omega Zoners want to make a House-like organization on Gran Canaria, their diplomacy won't screw up the Taus Zoners, because of the different IDs and ZoIs and everything else.

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I don't seed a signature.

[Anaximander]

I think you are far off the mark when you see the critique of Zoner capitals and gap in lore as "bullying", Doc. I know it can feel like that, and I know things come across very bluntly when debating on a forum in a - to many of us - foreign language. If you feel I am a "bully", I am truly sorry - but also slightly offended fyi.

My only real issues with Zoners lies in this:

Zoners are individuals for the most part, living far away from house space, willing to live where most won't. They've learned to get along with everyone regardless of what side of the law you're on.

zoners do not have a shared identity - like at all.

That is the lore I like too, that's Vanilla Zoners. From an internal point of view, that is through reading Zoner lore, Zoner infocards and generally thinking like a Zoner, there is no conflict between the statements above and the fact that you have capital ships, because "hey read the infocard, they are colony ships and we built them because we needed them in the Omicrons". That is true, but it is only one half of the picture.

The other is the external view, how everyone else view and perceive your lore, your infocards and your thinking. And your caps, infocards or not, are warships - just like we established in another thread that an unarmed battleship is still a battleship. Moreover with "no shared identity" you need to supply us with more information regarding how this could actually be pulled off, when other groups with "shared identities" cannot. You should really start taking that seriously instead of brushing it off as "bullying". It makes it uncomfortable for generally kind-hearted people to direct any form of critique or engage in any sort of dialogue with you, and that is a problem in and by itself.

Now I don't want to be the judge of Zoner RP or what direction you want to take it in, but the gap between the "internal" and "external" view needs to be addressed. Maybe you already ventured down this path by constructing those capital ships:

I personally believe in the old philosophy that "if you want peace, prepare for war." That doesn't mean that I go looking for one but I'm not going to be pushed either.

Maybe that could be your roleplay? That paranoia is escalating, like old time cold war stuff with one side having doubts about the other and vice versa. That maybe some Zoners had more of a shared identity than others, and thus were able to actually design and construct your armada (it's a mammoth feat, that's why few factions have them). That would leave room to groups like ZA, and it would also leave room to other players and factions making up their own mind about Zoners, independent from your internal view of yourselves. I'm not really asking for a lore masterpiece or anything, just something other than "magic" making it happen and "no consequences" being the outcome - it's a sci-fi universe, can't you come up with some sort of story about an alien powersource or unknown alloy or just something that made Zoners able to do the impossible, and have LSF and like-minded pursue those rumors loosely? Just something.

But having those caps does have consequences either way (that's why we are having this discussion, it's been recurring for as long as I have been here), it's up to you to pad the lore to make up for it, or leave us in this limbo where you feel you are being bullied and others feel like they are getting dominated by a nonsensical roleplay scenario they can't opt out of or even debate oorply.

[Zen_Mechanics]

Been reading through this thread where I can and respect the many thoughts in it. I'm just going to add my 2 cents in.

Zoners have proven twice now that a central Zoner government doesn't work. The Council of Zoners (CoZ) and the Zoner Alliance (ZA) only created more problems. I'll elaborate on the why as I go along.
Zoner groups have their own RP based on location. For example, the late Zoner Trading Consortium and now the Pheonix make their homes in Omicron 74. Their RP is predominantly the Corsairs and to some extent, the Outcasts. They often found themselves trapped in the middle of their conflict, facing demands made of each and if they didn't comply, the shooting began.
That said, TAZ has little contact with the Corsairs but much with the Outcasts. If there is a central body with one set of rules, all Zoners would suffer even though they don't live close to it.

Zoners are individuals for the most part, living far away from house space, willing to live where most won't. They've learned to get along with everyone regardless of what side of the law you're on. I RP this best I can. The RP seems to come from Houses who have decided to encroach upon where they moved to in order to avoid house laws. Bretonia always laying claims to Freeport 1, both Liberty and Rheinland laying claims on Freeport 2 and Kusari laying claims to Freeport 6, all of the borderworlds in which they live once unclaimed territory. For me, it's a challenge.

As to getting rid of cap ships, this debate is old. People say "perhaps if you got rid of them people wouldn't bully you." To this I say horse hockey!!! I know as a "bully" that if the less someone has to protect themselves, the more apt I am to push them."
People say cap ships aren't Zoner lore. Read up on the Nephilim or the late Jinkusu. They were build as colony ships for deep exploration. It's not my fault or that of any other good RPing Zoner that some people choose to use them as offensive weapons.
I personally believe in the old philosophy that "if you want peace, prepare for war." That doesn't mean that I go looking for one but I'm not going to be pushed either.

And of course we have those in server who feel that Zoners MUST have enemies. They are just war mongers IMO. They look for the simplest of excuses to justify an RP. "Well, this Zoner group did nothing when I was being shot at" is one I remember. Excuse me for playing Zoner lore. I'm sure those war mongers have plenty of people that will fight them and are tagged and lored to do so.

The problem with this is that when one group of zoners do something, it suddenly creates a burst of unknown-unelected pinheads who are quick to whine and complain on their way of playing. On one hand, zoners are multicultrual, but when push comes to shove, they are not. ZA was never meant to be an offensive group of people, rather the ones who wanted to push the zoner territories and control. How would you act if a foriegn entity pushed you away from baffin and claimed ownership on a system and had the skype-backings of their friends? I somehow guess that The Order would never target one of your own, but he can target other none-official ones and invent justifications. Well i'm sorry, but thats a very cheap trick. The fact is, Phoenix have had almost no activity in o-74, when ZA did, But magically they still own Livadia while at the same time they are camping in an astroid field. Now this can't be bullet proof, as I have seen some of them back in the day, but please, oorp chats are what really pushes the rp, because in any realistic -well played out world, Omicron can only dream of doing something that stupid.

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Were fools to make war on our brothers in arms.

[Trogdor]

And of course we have those in server who feel that Zoners MUST have enemies. They are just war mongers IMO. They look for the simplest of excuses to justify an RP. "Well, this Zoner group did nothing when I was being shot at" is one I remember. Excuse me for playing Zoner lore. I'm sure those war mongers have plenty of people that will fight them and are tagged and lored to do so.

I'm not sure whether this is aimed at my idea in regards to creating conflict in the new system I proposed. But it seems to be.

I will be frank: I do want there to be conflict. Conflict drives activity and roleplay. But the Zoners in the region would be playing a defensive, not offensive, role, so calling them or me 'warmongers' doesn't seem fair. They would be protecting the territory they've claimed. Don't want to participate? Don't go there, and don't get associated with that group. It'd be way down at the southern edge of Sirius.
There's little point, imo, to roleplaying a guard ship, be it snub or cap, if no one ever attacks you. Pirates generally don't attack us, because they don't want to be FR5'd out of being able to dock on our bases. So NOT doing that would be a prerequisite for making this idea of mine work. The owners of this system would have to remain a npc faction, and not an official faction, so that the threat of FR5 is off the table.

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[Omicron]

ZA was never meant to be an offensive group of people, rather the ones who wanted to push the zoner territories and control. How would you act if a foriegn entity pushed you away from baffin and claimed ownership on a system and had the skype-backings of their friends?

Pushing for control and territories means you get enemies. Zoners dont "own" space. They co-exist with greater powers around them and make themselves comfortable within local economy as middle-men of Sirius.

I somehow guess that The Order would never target one of your own, but he can target other none-official ones and invent justifications.

You think that if ZA was by any miracle official, it would change a thing? TAZ are left alone because they co-operate and are wilful to listen what their allies need. The only thing I disagree with them is their unnatural pushing for conflict with Gallia which has been defused by Doc. Phoenix as a faction, have longest standing support of all groups present. They have The Order's full support. OSI doesn't go against The Order either. Solar Runners made good impression in eyes of The Order, securing their place. Now tell me, what has ZA done to The Order?

Well i'm sorry, but thats a very cheap trick. The fact is, Phoenix have had almost no activity in o-74, when ZA did, But magically they still own Livadia while at the same time they are camping in an astroid field.

Just because Liberty Navy does not visit Willard station often, it does not mean it's open for the taking by any random that comes across.

Now this can't be bullet proof, as I have seen some of them back in the day, but please, oorp chats are what really pushes the rp

because in any realistic -well played out world, Omicron can only dream of doing something that stupid.

Do I sense some jealousy under mask of playing "this would never happen"?

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[Pavel]

Guys, remember to keep it civil

[Trogdor]

Yes yes Omicron, we're all well aware that you would love for the Zoners to be reduced to boring doormats.

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[Omicron]

SPECIAL AND URGENT NOTICE TO TROGDOR

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[Trogdor]

What is that supposed to mean?

I was contesting

Pushing for control and territories means you get enemies. Zoners dont "own" space. They co-exist with greater powers around them and make themselves comfortable within local economy as middle-men of Sirius.

Your view of the Zoners is boring.



I'm trying to push for something fun to do, and you/others keep coming in here, digging your heels in, and saying "No, the zoners are supposed to be a minor group that doesn't contribute anything significant to the mod's story."

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