The Order of the Lion

[Friday]

Not at all, they haven't had a reason to do it.

It's easier to make money raiding other people's trade and income than it is to try and manage your own. Therefore, why would the Corsairs want to conquer Bretonia and then be burdened with trying to rule a conquered populace (a very difficult task) when they can just keep raiding their commerce instead. It's better business for the Corsairs to leave Bretonia as is.

If Bretonia ever forced the Corsairs' hand though, then they would be forced to change their methods.

Also, in the past Bretonia was much stronger than they are now. So no, the Corsairs didn't do it because it wasn't such an easy thing like it is now. Right now Bretonia is by far the weakest house. Their military was almost totally destroyed in the battle for Leeds. So I agree, it may have been a really tough target for the Corsairs in the past - but things have changed.

It is the Corsairs stated goal to dominate the Houses of Sirius. So again, if they have the strength to attack Bretonia in force, they would do so. To mind mind the Corsairs should either 'put up or shut up' in regards to reprisal against Bretonia - and let these order people demonstrate their concept of valour of the field of battle...

---

[globalplayer-svk]

Some people here,screaming how weak are corsairs have not in mind that corsairsare the only unlawfull faction that invaded whole hoyse and tryed to defeat it,i mean planned invasion.(corsairs vs rheinland)they failed(it was planned so)but that is changing nothing on fact that they are still the biggest unlawfulls in sirius.
On other side,bretonia is openly loosing war. So they need all people on the front with kusari,because corsairs are only pirating in bretonia ,not trying to destroy it.
And when still bretonia can have free people for fighting with pirates,they start with home pirates that have bases near - mollies,and not with someone much stronger and based far far away...
Someone things that is something not logical in this post?when yes,give me counter arguments please

---

[Weedalot]

Some people here,screaming how weak are corsairs have not in mind that corsairsare the only unlawfull faction that invaded whole hoyse and tryed to defeat it,i mean planned invasion.(corsairs vs rheinland)they failed(it was planned so)but that is changing nothing on fact that they are still the biggest unlawfulls in sirius.
On other side,bretonia is openly loosing war. So they need all people on the front with kusari,because corsairs are only pirating in bretonia ,not trying to destroy it.
And when still bretonia can have free people for fighting with pirates,they start with home pirates that have bases near - mollies,and not with someone much stronger and based far far away...
Someone things that is something not logical in this post?when yes,give me counter arguments please

i must agree with what you said. They have forces in leeds that taking over is that not best for them to fight the WAR?

---

♠ Because we can ♠

[JakeSG]

Some people here,screaming how weak are corsairs have not in mind that corsairsare the only unlawfull faction that invaded whole hoyse and tryed to defeat it,i mean planned invasion.(corsairs vs rheinland)they failed(it was planned so)but that is changing nothing on fact that they are still the biggest unlawfulls in sirius.
On other side,bretonia is openly loosing war. So they need all people on the front with kusari,because corsairs are only pirating in bretonia ,not trying to destroy it.
And when still bretonia can have free people for fighting with pirates,they start with home pirates that have bases near - mollies,and not with someone much stronger and based far far away...
Someone things that is something not logical in this post?when yes,give me counter arguments please

I'm not going to answer your gripe here, I'll leave that to Zig. But I've noticed something consistently missing. Nobody has mentioned the Outcasts as an enemy of the Corsairs. Did somebody suddenly patch up the relations? A Don marry the daughter of an Elder to seal the deal? If Corsairs -really- had the power for a full scale invasion of a house such as Bretonia, do you think they would still be putting up with the insolent Outcasts? After all, those filthy cardamine peddlers to happen to be our greatest enemies.

---

For the Core.

[globalplayer-svk]

Dont forget that outcast are not the biggest unlawfull faction,but in rp they have best pilots(better as corsairs)+ cardamine,that make from them even better pilots. And count so they are hard opponent.




//sorry for so much grammars,i am in work and typing trough iphone and working too:)

---

[JakeSG]

Dont forget that outcast are not the biggest unlawfull faction,but in rp they have best pilots(better as corsairs)+ cardamine,that make from them even better pilots. And count so they are hard opponent.
//sorry for so much grammars,i am in work and typing trough iphone and working too:)

I was uh... Speaking from the Corsair point of view when I said 'our' there, so you pretty well proved my point. Also, you're forgiven for the poor grammar but not so much for succumbing to the media and buying an iPhone.

---

For the Core.

[bluntpencil2001]

Actually, the Blood Dragons have the best pilots, not Outcasts.

Also; pointless debate over hypothetical situations will go nowhere, and is irrelevant to the proposal.

---

[Blodo]

I read the first post, and I thought it was original if a bit limited, and then I read the rest of the thread...

I'm trying to be as objective as possible here... Well, let me put my thoughts this way: From reading Zig's replies I have gathered that the main point here (hidden well behind the interesting RP) is to in fact PvP the hell out of all the Corsair indie nubtards that sometimes happen to cautiously venture into the Omega systems. My assumption then is that this faction's main function is being a PvP club whos main and only RP is to shoot to kill, which I agree may have no basis ingame yet, but the posts in this thread are the only thing that sheds any light so far on the possible activities of this faction. And they don't really outline much else than shooting and killing so far... while taking the often more complex relationships in the Omega systems (which don't really amount to Corsairs vs everyone else, due to the multitude of different factions trading and visiting that space nowadays) entirely for granted.

So tell me: what other activities and RP other than killing Corsairs will this faction partake in? Are there any other activities at all? Some more info on the actual RP rather than the reasons behind the PvP would be nice...

[Benjamin]

That was my impression at first Blodo, but as pieguy said, he is in the faction. From my experience, that guy has little to no interest in PvP at all, so I'm guessing he's there for totally different reasons.

---

Join Cryer Pharmaceuticals

[pbrione]

The debate has, again, gotten rather sidetracked and I wish to try and summarise the points so far and address what I feel is at the heart of most of the criticisms, and what can be done about them. First there are the empirical claims that the RP is unrealistic, such as this:

Some people here,screaming how weak are corsairs have not in mind that corsairsare the only unlawfull faction that invaded whole hoyse and tryed to defeat it,i mean planned invasion.(corsairs vs rheinland)they failed(it was planned so)but that is changing nothing on fact that they are still the biggest unlawfulls in sirius.
On other side,bretonia is openly loosing war. So they need all people on the front with kusari,because corsairs are only pirating in bretonia ,not trying to destroy it.
And when still bretonia can have free people for fighting with pirates,they start with home pirates that have bases near - mollies,and not with someone much stronger and based far far away...
Someone things that is something not logical in this post?when yes,give me counter arguments please

In one sense this is entirely correct - the Bretonian government and BAF would not fund or send forces to fight a "crusade" against the large and powerful corsair empire when they have a Kusari threat in Leeds and the corsair homelands are so far away. However, I also beleive this fact is largely irrelevent. The faction proposal, as I read it and as I asked Zig to confirm to me, clearly is that of a group of independent, largely wealthy, citizens choosing to go off and fight their own crusade. The Bretonian government is not funding this. The BAF is not fighting this. Bretonian shipyards should also not be building extra ships for this. And nor is Bretonia losing pilots, as we are certainly a long way from implementing a policy of universal and compuslory conscription. Hence this group of people choosing to go off and fight their crusade does not, providing my above points are met by the faction, in any way detract from Bretonia's war effort against Kusari.

However, nor is it likely to have much "real" impact on the corsairs. As I say, you can debate over the corsairs relative power compared to other npc factions all day, but in general a small (-ish) group of crusaders, however elite, are not going to be much beyond a minor annoyance to the corsair empire as a whole, when compared with vast groups such as the RHA, nomads or even RM and BAF. On that point, I would suggest that the faction proposers amend their mission statements slightly to tone down references to "pushing back" the corsair empire or any "seige of gamma" and particularly any bases in Theta or thereabouts. If your current aim is to get people to approve your faction, you would be better off not starting with such ambitious and controversial goals. Even having such goals inRP is controversial, never mind advocating them OOC as genuine possibilities. Even the KNF aren't coming forwards claiming their desire to stage a RP "seige of New London" with us, and it is wrong to set your goals as a victory that may well be unreasonable in both RP and gaming terms, even in the long term. In the short term, given how controversial this appears to be already, it is downright foolish and turning people against you.

Start small, concentrate on proving yourself in small, personal engagements, resucuing individual civilians from the corsairs and with good minor RP events like fundraisings, kidnappings, espionage and so on, to prove your worth to the community and dispell accusations of being PvP abusers. Personally I don't greatly know Zig or any of the others involved that well, but whilst I am not prejudiced some respectable people here clearly doubt your ability to handle this quite delicate proposal with the sensitivity that it needs. I think you should at least have the chance to prove yourselves in game, but dropping the more controversial aspects of this proposal such as the "campaign leading to ultimate victory" references and the derogatory comments about corsairs general RP and PvP ability, as well as the Bretonian aspects I mentioned earlier is an essential first step towards proving those intentions. I would suggest an update of your first post to take into account some of the more obvious flaws as soon as possible.

If you want my personal advice I'd change your mission statement from pushing back the corsairs and defeating them to something about saving lives, protecting civilians and upholding Bretonian honour. Make it sound more defensive and less aggressive. You can still fight a war out in the Omegas and near Omicrons for defensive purposes by heading off enemy forces, but the emphasis should be on doing it to protect people, both from corsairs and other threats such as the Wilde, not crush the corsair empire. That will make you sound less interested in PvP for the sake of it and persuade people that you would not just engage on sight every corsair IDed person you came across. Then you need to go in game and show you really mean it.

Do this, and you will dispel most reasonable critics and prove yourselves worthy of carrying this through.

Fail to do this and you will confirm the reputation that some people appear to have of you as PvP orientated.

I reserve judgement.

---

Sir Stanley Nelson




<span style="color:#000066">Charles Canning </span><span style="color:#000066"> Foreign Secretary</span>