' Wrote:Another thing....quote related. WHY would you be engaging a capship in a small fighter....you dont spot a missleboat and then go charging it with your LF only to be blown off....you run...fast..and dont start meeping about CDing since the CMs are there to counter that.
The fighter doesn't engage the capship. The capship engages the fighter.
Then, by the way the rules are now, the fighter can either run and be counted dead for four hours, or stay and fight for eternity or until the cap finally hits him and then be counted dead for four hours.
There is no way for the fighter to not have to leave the system for four hours after the cap engages him.
I'll be short, blunt and to the point.
If you can not avoid Battleship turrets in a fighter then you fail at piloting,
I suggest you have someone train you in a fighter.
Your shortcomings aren't everyone else's problems or reason enough
to nerf Battleships even further. A battleship however should not be opening fire
on a sigle fighter unless the fighter is talking or showing hostilities, but fighters
always do anyways
' Wrote:I'll be short, blunt and to the point.
If you can not avoid Battleship turrets in a fighter then you fail at piloting,
I suggest you have someone train you in a fighter.
Your shortcomings aren't everyone else's problems or reason enough
to nerf Battleships even further.
The matter isn't avoiding battleship turrets.
You can avoid battleship turrets 'til the cows come home, but until the battleship decides to leave you alone, which never happens, since then he'd have to leave the system for four hours, you're stuck with only two options, those being run and leave the system for four hours or stay and fight a little while longer.
There is nothing the fighter can do to not lose the engagement. Nothing.
[edit]
And never have I had a battleship not engage me just because I'm in a fighter. They always engage. Always.
[edit 2]
And no amount of training will ever allow a fighter to kill a dreadnaught. It is simply impossible with capship recharge rates set so high.
[edit 3]
Now that I think about it, it's technically impossible TO enage a capship in a fighter, because no matter what you pound on it with, you can't reduce their shields down to 50%, which is when it constitutes an engagement.
You can avoid battleship turrets 'til the cows come home, but until the battleship decides to leave you alone, which never happens, since then he'd have to leave the system for four hours, you're stuck with only two options, those being run and leave the system for four hours or stay and fight a little while longer.
There is nothing the fighter can do to not lose the engagement. Nothing.
[edit]
And never have I had a battleship not engage me just because I'm in a fighter. They always engage. Always.
So? leave the system for four hours then? Handle it in RP? (odds on the battleship isn't gonna stay there for four hours anyway?)
said it before, will say it again - leave the cap ships alone.
A lone fighter shouldn't be trying to engage, but hey, they can if they want? Perhaps the pilot is insanely brave? perhaps he had too much coffee... whatever. If the cap engages you, then deal with it, leave the system, fight or call in friends. What is this " a capship shouldn't be engaging a lone fighter" business? IF that player wants to, that's their prerogative... (its a waste of time anyway and any cap ship player who knows will say as has been said if the pilot is anything more than a rubbish pilot you wont hit him) BUT:
You will drive him away.
Could be the point?
What a capship shouldn't be doing is inserting itself into a that's taking place between fighters and bombers alone - unless they are asked or requested.
People choose to fly the ship class they choose to fly they have to accept all the advantages AND DISADVANTAGES that come with that choice. They shouldn't come running to the forums asking to have the entire system changed because they dont like the consequences of their choice. I chose to fly a cap... i know that im vulnerable as hell in a fight, that if im caught by a few good bomber pilots im in trouble...
fine, i live with it.. avoid bombers, or sure has heck give them a good verbal taunting while they dance around my ship and slowly but surely kill me.
Others chose to fly fighters, so, when a big hulking barge of death looms in front of you RP it accept the fact that alone you have no hope and deal with it., dont sit there wanting your cake but to eat it to.
Owing to my comp and internet limitations, i almost exclusively play caps now - (actually, id like to play in a fighter as well but its pretty much unplayable) - I like to think i play my ships responsibly - but these kind of "change the whole system" threads are unfair to those players out there in caps who play well.
all points 1 - 6 are already true... 10 VHF's dish out astonishing damage about 50k per second... even more per burst... bombers deal out an even bigger damage, 4 bombers for example can do 50k's per second. And that's the ammount battleship can do. So yes a continual fire for 1 second from a battleship can take out a fighter, IF it's dumb enough to stand in place.
I won't bother spricing up the details, your guidelines are all true, much to the hate of capital ship captains... You can hardly make them more expensive, as right now a fully kitted BS costs you about what's the hardcoded price limit. Think of it this way, 1 fighter costs 2M one BS costs 750M it takes 10 fighters to take it down, that's 730M less,...
To illustrate the real problem... 3 bombers show up after a gunboat, this gunboat calls in 3 cruisers, 2 bombers and one light fighter. Who do you think lives in the end? hint: 1 gunboat and the LF, on the other side one bomber flees alive. The moment you have a few bobmers with supernova, every cap except perhaps a gunboat that's flown to the limits, is fish bait. I've flown Osiris in battle time and again, you see many bombers you run, you try to fight them off, but if they are skilled enough there's nothing you can do but prelong the enevitable.
In anycase, where did this notion come from that you have to WIN everything, much can be gained by not loosing. Flee if you have to, there's nothing more in Role than staying alive...
Donate to the Poor Pilot's Fundation via Sirius Bank /givecash GreenHawk 1000000 now, and support poor pilots sirius wide!
Skype: jure.grbec
My primary char: Jose El Nino - Corsair Elder captain of the SS Greenhawk
Currently Inactive due to pursuit of life long dreams, will be back...*edited* As promised am back.
I can see both sides of the issue more clearly thanks to everyone who has posted.
I havent been able to fly a capital ship on server yet, and probably never will fly anything bigger than a gunboat if that, so its good to hear from people who do it every day and have that perspective that I do not.
Likewise I have something capship owners do not, an opinion thats unaffected by the experience of flying a capital ship, that comes purely from flying against them, which lends me a slant you dont have.
The fact still remains that if and when you are engaged or pursued by something like a Battleship that outclasses you by a mile, you're dead or dead, aka you loose...
instead of being able to flee and remain in system, to say, finish buisiness.
In *that* case, if that were possible, you didnt win, but you didnt die, loose, or be inconvenienced beyond having to run screaming for your life, something everyone has to learn to do to survive.
And, I never said anyone *had* to rebalance capital ships, not my call.
Im simply of the opinion there are balancing flaws to be worked out. Emphasis on opinion. Theyre just my observations, and your observations, the man in charge is who decides how they factor into the next version.
And just so no one misinterprets; I was not asking for a full nerf.
A full nerf would be making them less powerful overall, totally.
A rebalance, which is what Im simply asking everyone to discuss, not necessarily implement; is taking something away from one area and adding to another to yield the same overall level of power, but with more defined strengths and weaknesses.
Again, I understand what people are saying about the costs, but I am the voice of extreme RP realism, most of you are the voice of conservative game playability.
I would rather that battleships be two to three times the hardcoded price limit when fully fitted out, to make them inaccesible to all but those with clan backing elected to a Battleship Captain position, but that, I will freely admit, is too extreme, even for battleships.
I suppose what frustrated me most in my engagements that spawned the questions and observations and opinions I have, is that both times I was not even looking to slug it out with a capship.
Both times they showed up during an in progress operation.
So what I suppose Im looking for in the end, at the end of the day, is a solution to the conundrum that all small ship pilots face when alone or in a flimsy ship when they get slammed unexpectedly with this sort of problem. Namely, that when escape needs to be both possible and allowed, its often times not the case.
Step back and think, if your only options in an engagement were to die or die, and you didnt ask for the engagement, and this happened repetedly, wouldnt *you* too be asking for some third option? Wouldnt you want a way, if not to win, to have a chance to at least not die and not loose?
An alteration of balancing and cost seemed the natural method for solving the problem, but then again, its possible that an alteration of PvP rules (especially the deletion of the fleeing rule) would render a rebalance un-necessary.
Thats really the point of this, to re-examine what is clearly a problem (there are two sides with a point to argue, so its obviously an issue)
and figure out what reccomendations we as players can agree to make based on our unique experiences and perspectives to help out the mod creator who is gracious enough to take into account the feedback of the community.
Edit;
And I agree in principle with what you said Laowai... Well put,
except for the part about how these threads are unfair.
I would argue that since I, or anyone who asks questions or requests changes for Capships, has no more or less power to change the next mod version than those who favor the current system, that a civil discussion is not only fair, its a good thing, because it gives you who favor the current system a chance to convince those who dont that you are right and they are wrong.:)
"Ladies and Gentlemen, allow me to introduce you to several friends of mine, they like to keep a fixed distance from me most of the time, and they have a tendancy to spin and gyrate on multi-directional mounts faster than you can compensate for. They disgorge 75 isojoules of subatomic disruptive destructive energy. Fear the tachyon cannons"
Capital ships are INCREDIBLY underpowered currently. Bombers can rape all that moves and especially capital ships.
You want to make them weaker?
...
EDIT: 1 fighter should not stand a chance against a battleship. Neither should 2, or 3 or 4 or 5 or even 6.
Why bother building these great ships if they are so easy to destroy?
Really When I started out I resented trading and pirated myself up to the crusier.... after about a year now... I mostly fly gunboats and VHF's. Gunboat is my way of making profit, if I trade I do it for fun, and to support mercs and othe hireble players...
It's not hard to get a cap-ship and it probably shouldn't be. On the other hand it should be hard to keep it. Perhaps a cap-ship liscence would be obtained via a test regarding server rules. You would get 30 random question pertaining rules wich you would have to answer 90% correct. Then all pvp hungry cap whores, woudl have to obay cruise rules and every fighter pilot, would simply thrust out of range... engage cruise and run of intact...
And really that's how it should be... Cap is a staple of firepower, you don't attack it with a fighter, unless you have a cunning ambush/plan I would hate to see a cap ship without sufficent firepower, that would be OORP, and should be sanctioned.
Edit: I agree, thou if you're in a fighter, you have very little to do against any caps... in bombers you could solo a battle cruiser technicly (due to it's cruiser shields)... but really for that you need a new set of skills. If you were indeed in a fighter you must have stood still, or something... what fighter are you in? If you are still a poor pilot, our poor pilot's fundation can help you get a VHF, wich can easily outsurvive caps on a battlefield...
Donate to the Poor Pilot's Fundation via Sirius Bank /givecash GreenHawk 1000000 now, and support poor pilots sirius wide!
Skype: jure.grbec
My primary char: Jose El Nino - Corsair Elder captain of the SS Greenhawk
Currently Inactive due to pursuit of life long dreams, will be back...*edited* As promised am back.
![[Image: hG0lGaj.png]](https://i.imgur.com/hG0lGaj.png)
![[Image: SLRU.png]](http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv46/Nighthawkashes/SLRU.png)
![[Image: hispaniansubcopy.png]](http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7625/hispaniansubcopy.png)
![[Image: elconsejeroub2copy.png]](http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9096/elconsejeroub2copy.png)
![[Image: sig-9566.jpg]](http://www.clintonio.com/sig-9566.jpg)
![[Image: opgbar.gif]](http://www.seounghoun.com/opgbar.gif)
![[Image: rightbar.jpg]](http://www.seounghoun.com/rightbar.jpg)
![[Image: Sungi_sig.png]](http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk72/Zelot827/Sungi_sig.png)
