Engaging

[Xoria]

And on the other hand, anyone who deliberately remains within about 1k of a fight is, in my view, part of the engagement, because they can easily supply bots and bats to one side or the other, and whichever side believes they are unlikely to be the beneficiary has credible reasons to preemptively prevent such a thing from occurring.

So if the BHG were within weapons range of the dogfight, then they were fair game.

BHG showing up and getting that close is a hostile act all by itself, and BHG can reasonably be considered to be allies of the police and military, so their close presence involves them in the engagement all by itself, just like if more police or military had shown up. The Xenos were no more required to speak to BHG within weapons range of the engagement than they were required to speak to additional police who showed up and jumped in, because they had already addressed the reasons of the engagement with its initial participants.

With the ability to know the identity of participants at 4k, there is no reason for a closer approach other than to get involved in the engagement. Deliberately approaching a fight and remaining close enough to it to be hit by weapons fire or trade bots and bats is a de facto involvement in the engagement.

If anyone erred, it was the BHG who involved themselves in something that wasn't their concern. And if it was their concern, then that also makes them part of the engagement.

Requiring roleplaying before engaging is not a legalistic suicide pact, and it is not an open invitation to allow combat to become a mass spectator sport.

If you don't want to get shot, then stay away from people who are shooting already. If you don't, then you have no basis upon which to complain if you get shot.

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[JIVA]

well - in that case - a general announcement of being hostile makes you a fair target in return. - that means - if its sufficient to engage an enemy without directly addressing the target.

so - i could practicly fly into a system and taunt everyone that is my enemy. - which would then count as a direct announcement that would have fulfilled the rules about engaging in RP.

furthermore - lets say..... the BHGs were not sure if th ere was a bounty on the xenos ( can be confusing - its not like we have a forum that has a sticky thread of every ACTIVE bounty up - sorted by who can claim them - which is ... again quite important for the BHG, as they are not mercs and must not take every bounty that is posted... in doubt, they must not )

so - lets say - you are "dragged" into a fight - meaning the fight moves or starts where you are. - you can of course retreat ( which - by that definition counts as a retreat = 4 hours rule ) - or you can alt-tab and check the forum ( meanwhile being a "fair game" ingame ) - or you can hope that no one attacks you....

thats .... seriously - not a satisfactory situation at all. - so i stand to my believe that EVERY target must personally be addressed BEFORE its attacked.

just sitting where there is a fight does not make you part of the fight

cause - if that is true - and the BHG are already part of the fight ... they must be allowed to "automaticly" engage without a bounty, too - cause THEY were dragged into a fight - ( that is - if they were not flying intentionally to the battle - and that again - if the battle does not happen in a place where occasional ppl come by ( lane knots, gates - etc ) cause if thats the case - accidental pvp happens fairly easily - with all the nasty consequences... )



@Xoria:

lets play around with the situation - turn the BHG into Junkers... a semi lawful / unlawful group. - there happens to be junkers there - NOT engaging anyone... can the lawfuls engage them at will? ... in the end, we know that junkers ... while being lawful enough to stay under the radar have a tendency to serve the unlawfuls. - so by that definition, the navy could engage the junkers.

edit:

and don t get me wrong - "common sense" says that of course the BHG in that example can be engaged... so does roleplay by ALL means.... only... its not about common sense, nor is it about roleplay - cause in that scenario - the rules do not support those two aspects.

a serious BHG player that is afraid of a sanction ( the most serious penalty on the server ) can NOT attack anymore - cause the rules have made engaging for BHGs SANCTIONABLE ( not only bad form in RP - but outright sanctionable ) - and frankly... keeping every bounty in mind is a bit too much.

so - unfortunately - by the rules, things get very complicated, and .... i believe a "little" unfair, when we say that by RP / common sense, they can be attacked, when the BHG cannot fire back on the base of common sense.

they must only defend themselves - and .... defending means waiting for your shields to be drained 50% or more. - anything else CAN be sanctioned

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the [JIVA] group

[chovynz]

a serious BHG player that is afraid of a sanction ( the most serious penalty on the server ) can NOT attack anymore - cause the rules have made engaging for BHGs SANCTIONABLE ( not only bad form in RP - but outright sanctionable ) - and frankly... keeping every bounty in mind is a bit too much.

You seem to miss the fact there there are Open bounties on every liberty criminal imaginable. So any BHG ship is already declared hostile to them.

Irrespective of the ship, if you sit that closely to a fight thats going on (usually at highspeed and tensions), or if you even sit and watch just 4k away and it move towards you, and you do nothing, you're just begging to get shot. I use a tactic of switching targets. The more people involved against me the more they are likely to bump into each other, enabling me to concentrate on one.

I believe that when you are near a fight you should stay at cockpit. Move away if necessary but to switch to the forums is quite silly when a big fight is going on. get safe or dock somewhere THEN check the forums.

And if any ship come under attack, then of course they can fire back. thats well covered in the server rules. Self defense is encouraged. If you are an ok pilot you can recover from 50% shield loss.

Simple answer is don't sit and watch a fight. Complicated answer is dont sit and watch a fight.

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Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.

[Grimly]

100,000 credits for the destruction of any Outcast, Hacker, Rogue, or Xeno fighter. Requirements: Must be a Bounty Hunter, must fly a fighter-class ship, does not cover LF Mk 1s (Daggers, Bloodhounds, etc.)

150,000 credits for the destruction of any Outcast, Hacker, Rogue, or Xeno bomber. Requirements: Must be a Bounty Hunter, must fly a fighter-class or bomber-class ship

NOTE: any 'assists', where an LPI vessel is present, results in 50% of the normal pay. Any 'assists' where the LN/LSF are present results in 75% normal pay. Proof must be in the form of gun-camera pictures. If the ships are LH, HF, LR, or XA ((player faction)) ships, the pay is increased by 25,000 credits. MERCENARIES AND FREELANCERS ARE NOT PAID

Sorry but my hunter will simply engage in this case.
The xenos must also engage cause they know that bounty exists !

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Taking what's yours since 816 A.S.

[JIVA]

yes - both comments are correct - but what if there happened to be no bounty anymore? - some bounties expire - and the players are not always 100% certain.

now - imagine that they attack - ... then there comes a report about ooRP attacking. - they try to say that "there was a universal bounty on unlawfuls" but that turns out to be expired - hence, they can be fined for ooRPness...

because - they might not have had every bounty in their mind... maybe they were doing mostly bretonian stuff - and just happened to return to liberty randomly. - maybe they were not intentionally flying into the fight - but the fight went to them..

and if they had docked, they would have been forced to leave the system for 4 hours - or untill the attackers had left. ( regarding to the retreat rule )

i do hope - you see the problems there - when we take the rules seriously.

edit: so if your reputation and a sanction is at risk - can you take the risk to "assume that there is a bounty"? - what if it turns out there is none - sadly - there is only black and white, cause the new rules somewhat don t really allow a grey area - either there is a forum bounty or there it not. - and even if the LN said "you will be payed for assisting" - the BHG would not be sure if he can... even if the LN said "there is a forum bounty" - the BHG must make sure that there is... cause what if the LN lied? - its would still be the BHG that violated the rules by not checking... .

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the [JIVA] group

[Orin]

Not knowing about a bounty? And how about the Xeno's shoes, Jinx? What if they knew about the bounty?

The hunters are sitting there next to a fight. Hunters are notorious for hitting the targets when they're weak, so it looks like they're waiting for the Navy to wear them down. They're within combat range, a fight is already going on, the Xenos can shoot them without RP.

I was on my 522 a week or so ago. Another 522 was under attack from the Commonwealth and another cruiser. I took the tradelane to get to them, jumped out of it, started getting shot at. Were the Naval forces wrong for attacking me without RP? I wasn't attacking yet.

No, they weren't. I was another hostile jumping into battle. I was a target. The Xenos and BHG are hostile, and the bounty is in effect. Even if it wasn't, the Xenos can attack the BHG at will. The BHG were in range of the furball, therefore they were fair game. The BHG's hypothetical confusion over a bounty doesn't fit in here. The Xenos can attack them, they were in range of an already heated battle, the Xenos have to assume that the BHG are waiting to attack (why else would they be there in RP?), therefore they attacked.

I don't see one thing wrong here, except that the BHG complained over nothing sanctionable.

[Drake]

Due to the actions of NPCs and the vast majority of BHG players on Discovery, the BHG is hostile to just about all unlawful factions, and vice versa. If I were an unlawful and was fighting the LN (or any other lawful) and there were BHG within range, they would certainly be considered part of the engagement, whether they were firing (yet) or not. Even if they haven't started shooting, they could at any moment. And all this applies whether there's a standing bounty on unlawfuls or not.

[JIVA]

@Orin:

the difference there is... when i am a xeno - i can engage a BHG at will.

when i am a BHG, i must not engage a xeno at will.

that is quite a difference. - we do not take experience into account of BHGs who are "notorious to attack" or whatever...

just look at it from that perspective that i posted before...:

what if there were - 5 navy, 5 Xenos - and 2 junkers. - could the navy pilots consider those rather shady junkers to be a threat and engage them .... without a word of warning? - if they can not - why can we engage the BHG.

the problem is not that the Xenos cannot engage the BHG... the problem is that the attack was not announced on them. - no doubt the Xenos can engage the BHG - but should they really not need the requirement to announce the attack in a good RP form? - if they are unable to do so - is that a reason not to do so?

after all - if the BHG were engaging, we would expect them to write up more than "engaging", too - before they attacked the Xenos - or would we not? - if not .... we can note that down and treat is as a precedent for future engagements

it would mean, whenever lawfuls fight unlawfuls, the BHG can engage without a word - assuming there is a universal bounty out ... which still means to keep EVERY active bounty in mind.

when you do say now that .... the BHG in that situation would not need to say a word before they open fire ... we re on equal terms. - however, if you say that the BHG must say something before they attack - so must the unlawfuls.

so for you the very clear question: - in this situation, - would the BHG have been allowed to engage the Xenos without a word? or wouldn t it be better RP to address the targets with a short but distinct line of RP before opening fire.

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the [JIVA] group

[Orin]

would the BHG have been allowed to engage the Xenos without a word? or wouldn t it be better RP to address the targets with a short but distinct line of RP before opening fire.

It's a different circumstance. If the BHG came out of nowhere and attacked, they should RP an engagement. The Xenos are already in an intense battle, they see BHG sitting on scanners, they think "**** they're plotting an attack obviously, there are bounties on all Xenos." so they start fighting them too. The BHG entered the combat scene without any RP as to what they were doing there. If they were not going to engage, they should have stayed much further away, so as to not elicit a counter attack.

[Skoorb]

Everyone knows the Xenos are admin approved and admin favored.

The new rule clearly states bounty hunters cannot attack anyone without a bounty. I know this because some pirates and smugglers in game have decided to taunt me saying if i attack they will sanction me. So basically any pirate that feels jaded from a fight that was RPed to that point, can come to the forums and cry sanction. Every encounter a bounty hunter has to wonder, will i be sanctioned now.

Are the bounty hunters being petty, yes. Are the bounty hunters right, yes. Was one line of text offered before attack, nope. If i was in their shoes i would hesitate to get involved too.

You are saying that bounty hunters have to have a real real strict reason to attack, but unlawfuls, well we like them so they get a lot more room and leniency. Unlawfuls RP all you want, Bountyhunters you must follow the RULES. If an unlawful brings your shields down to 50% that is ok but if a bounty hunter does it there better be a bounty on that person and you better type at least something before attacking.

The bountyhunters here got tired of being spouted the new rules to, and this is the result, they spouted back.

No worries, i bagged my characters and will wait til the rules hammering and annoyances die down before i even try to come back. That makes one less Bounty Hunter you have to deal with. The RP environment isn't what it used to be. It used to be play your character and everything is ok with the occasional rules spouter. The admin and player attack on the newbie PVPers has adversely affected the bountyhunter rp and ramped up the spouters. This server is moving toward becoming a PVP server with lots of rules.