Zoner ID Reformation Idea

[Linkus]

I suggest all the Zoner official factions get their own ID's and we have a generic Zoner ID, much like we do now.
Tech requests could go through any of the 3 factions.

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[Ingenious]

More rules and centralization when there is no need. Zoners are a nonmilitaristic, decentralized class of people, not a military - even if you want them to be a military.

[fencore]

OSI's outlook on Zoners is most certainly in line with what Aeternus described. I could launch into a full explanation of our view, but a lot of my point of view was represented in the beginning parts of the OP, Zoners (we think) should be decidedly decentralized in nature.

Of course, Lou, thank you at least for further explaining the Omicroner's stance that OSI is an unaffiliated organization. That's better than the one line we got before. It does, however, assure me further of the fact that we need to split the Zoners visibly, because what one group thinks is completely different from the other. OSI recognizes Omicroner roleplay but disagrees with it, Omicroners don't even think OSI are Zoners, and TAZ is somewhere in the middle. In order to co-exist, I think we need to find our own "rooms", essentially. Sleeping in the same bed isn't working for as diverse as we are.

I certainly would be even more in favor of four total IDs - three Zoner-tied but still Faction-specific IDs with the Zoner ID left to its generic norm. I think that would alienate us too far from where we want to be in terms of Zoner roleplay, though. OSI and TAZ, at least from what I observe, seem to share the same mentality when it comes to how to act as a Zoner. The difference lies in how each faction functions, and that difference in functional action extends to the Omicroners as well.

It's a tough cookie, though. Many of us are displeased with how things are now, but many others of us are adverse to forfeit some responsibility in order to make for change. I'm not going to claim my answer is the right one, just another step on the path.

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Addendum for n00bl3t: I daresay my assessment of the TAZ was premature. Given that at the time we'd been discussing it for a couple days and Yaoquizque was the only one to offer sentiments from the TAZ which went uncontradicted until yesterday, I assumed his comments represented the greater part of his faction. As I came to know later, that was not the case.

[6/30/2011 10:39:36 PM] Tristan - TAZ Representative: Oh and the reason that there are no TAZ viewpoints is that well, frankly I dont have issue with much of what is in the proposal. All I care about is if it would work for all of us and not just TAZ.

You need not play coy, however. You know exactly what I'm talking about in regards to infighting. You asked me to show respect toward your faction in the things I say on the forum - and I have with this thread been positively delightful - but I'd most certainly like to ask the same of you. This thread is not about airing our grievances about each other's players, it's about discussing and possibly eventually finding a solution to the ID issue that none of us thought about since we're so mired in the issues. As you've been so polite to remind me, we have feedback threads for this.

[Ingenious]

The thing is, the existing Zoner and Zoner Guard IDs suit your purposes just fine. Zoner Guards transports can't land on bases in House Space? Bring a Zoner ID BWT in the convoy and offload it that way. Other than that I see no real reason to add more IDs rules rephacks restrictions etc.

[Daedric]

Before we are trying to find out who is closest to vanilla I would like to cite NPC "S.Ralston" in Freeport 9.

"Our brothers in Freeport 5 send us [...]. It's a Zoners duty to help other Zoners where we can; [...] only by sticking together can we make it."

OSI made themselves a name by abandoning their brethren in the Omicrons, so I seriously doubt OSI could ever be the Zoners claiming to be close to vanilla.

But I do not think it will serve this discussion if we are starting to point out what vanilla is and how far we each of the Zoner Factions is away from it.

If we assume that neither the TAZ, nor the Omicroners are willing to accept this ID split while OSI perhaps being interested to achieve a separation it might prove to be benefitial to find an ID for OSI that is matching their role play as closest as possible.

That is your opinion of what happened. We don't feel we abandoned anyone, as you don't see us as Zoners, we don't feel you are acting like Zoners. Thus, we didn't abandon our brethren.

While you are of the opinion we don't represent Zoners at all, I think its clear most of the community feels we do. I mean, you remember that thread Jinx made about a comment made by a certain some body? I remember you and Jinx coming on Skype and asking for TAZ and OSI's advice on fixing the issues the community has with the Omicroners. Tristian, Ghies, Doc, and I all gave your honest opinion, all of which were ignored.

You can also quit trying to get us to give up the Zoner ID because you don't think we are Zoners. The Zoner ID fits our role play as much as it fits your role play; regardless of your opinion.

What Gheis is trying to do with this proposal is resolve the issues between the factions by taking the two current Zoner IDs (Zoner and Zoner Guard) and re-tool them in a way that would develop Zoner RP and also clearly show that there are different ideas on what a Zoner is. You yourself heavily supported the idea in Skype, only changing your personal opinion when other Omicroners started to disagree with you. Not to mention Jinx also agreed, but said he doubted the development team would allow it. Funny how you say one thing to us on Skype, then say another on the forums.

TAZ didn't like the idea, and I understand why. The idea is more of a split between OSI and the Omicroners, but that is why Gheis asked for input from them so the proposal could be modified. Is this the fix that is needed? Who knows, but as Doc said, it is a step in the direction needed.

So, Lou, instead of feeling the need to point out how you disagree with another person's opinion because he doesn't agree with you. How about we find a solution to the problem that exists.

Another benefit of an ID split is one that benefits the admins. Faction Right usage. Diplomacy. Right now, the three Zoner factions have varied diplomacy that prevent FR5. The Corsair fiasco at 9 is a perfect example and the SCRA that were also there.

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[Blodo]

I heavily dislike and disagree with the opening up of any Zoner ID to sirius wide trade options. I am sorry but it would be a regression back to the bad old days where 99% of traders flew the Zoner ID because of the unprecedented freedom and pretty much universal neutrality that it entailed.

If you open up the Zoner ID to trading with houses again, you will see a sharp rise in powertrading indies and consequently a sharp rise in anti zoner sentiment in the community yet again, because of the simple fact that the Zoner ID will once again kill all the corporations and their activity, and by consequence many pirate factions who rely on corporations as well.

I will oppose that measure as much as I can.

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Other than that the idea looks interesting, but there used to be another idea in this place: mainly to split the Zoner NPC faction into several subfactions based on regions. As we know, Zoner stations are spread across all of Sirius, but also are kind of clumped in together in independent regions. Logic therefore follows that some of those Zoners would have greater contact with some Zoners than other ones. Rather than implementing a Sirius wide rep for all, instead split it up into sub groups:

- Gran Canaria Zoners - all Omega freeports
- Tau Zoners - all Tau freeports
- Omicron Zoners - all Omicron freeports
- Independent World Zoners - Bering, Kepler, Pennsylvania freeports

This can allow certain groups of Zoners to have appropriate reputation adjustments based on their dealings in the area. So for example Omicron Zoners could have a no docking policy for Outcasts and Hessians based on their close proximity to and a great threat from the Corsairs, etc.
All of these Zoner groups would of course be allied to one another to denote their common origins.

It seemed like a nice idea at the time it was proposed but it was blocked by the dev team back then. Perhaps if you want to reorganise the Zoners, it is time to revisit this?

[Daedric]

I heavily dislike and disagree with the opening up of any Zoner ID to sirius wide trade options. I am sorry but it would be a regression back to the bad old days where 99% of traders flew the Zoner ID because of the unprecedented freedom and pretty much universal neutrality that it entailed.

Not if the ID took on rep hacks that prevent it from having said unprecedented freedom.

It seemed like a nice idea at the time it was proposed but it was blocked by the dev team back then. Perhaps if you want to reorganise the Zoners, it is time to revisit this?

That is the concept yes. However, that suggestion requires the creation of two more IDs and two more IFFs. Gheis' suggestion re-uses what is already in game. So no new IDs and no new IFFs.

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[Jeremy Hunter]

Blodo, one small thing.

Independant World Zoners. Take out the Pennsylvania Freeport. Bethlehem wil become synth foods next mod, so really, no use mentioning it anymore.

And thats all.

Other than I'd perfer the IDs stay the same.

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May you ever walk in the Light, Shizune.

[fencore]

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to the idea, Blodo. to be entirely frank, the only reason I didn't bring up even futher decentralization was because I knew that idea had been rejected in the past and was eager to perhaps attempt something new.

If we could get that to work, though, I do believe that may be the best solution for all of us.

Edit: Yeah, Jeremy got that. Remove Beth and put in Yukon's FP14. Those are niggling details, though, we can sort those out should the idea prove to be viable.

[DarthBindo]

We are trying to balance the four attributes while permanently being aware our inability to gain masterhood in any of them.

I, as a Corsair, find this funny.
Apparently you are masters of warfare, able to hold off a very significant portion of the Corsair armada.
Masters of trade too, i mean, how else could you afford your mythical fleet of twelve Jinkusus? Not only that, but you can apparently get trade ships past Corsair bases.
Oh, and masters of science, since you've managed to create a impenetrable shield for FP9.
I will say, you do suck at diplomacy though.
All you do is shake a stick and yell vaguely at mean people whilst being belligerent and condescending.
/slowclap.
Perhaps before you go trashing OSI in public for perhaps being a little off nominal Zoner RP, you should fix your own problem of completely ignoring RP conventions when it suits you.

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gone four years, first day back: Zoners still getting shot in Theta :|