(08-27-2013, 04:26 PM)DarthBindo Wrote: The Osiris was developed in conjunction with the Corsairs, using their resources and shipyards, which is why we also have access to it.
As for the Corsairs and Outcasts supporting fleets, we both have planets rich in mineral resources.
It's always been my understanding that the few things the Corsairs have to import for shipbuilding are advanced electronics from Samura and certain rare alloys for use in engine building (and of course the engine components themselves).
Let's not forget that the Hispanic factions are small Houses unto themselves.
I believe Highland Laddie was referring to the original prototype Osiris from the vanilla campaign.
From the Vanilla game, the Order had many secret supporters from all four of the main houses. They also had allies in the Outcasts and Blood Dragons. They were funded in secret from all over the place, hence they were in no way unable to function at that time. Of course, all of that has changed here on Disco. But, as poor as you say the Order is, they still have a full combat oriented ship line from fighters all the way to a Battleship. When the Osiris was new, it was top of the line equipment. But now that technology has progressed, I think it is time to upgrade the aging craft which is obviously out gunned at present. Would it be so far-fetched for the Zoners to gift them the plans to this monster ship which they really have no use for and even build/supply parts for it?
What to explain there? Zoners are neutral with everyone, they are able to fly in the colonies safely. But Corsairs are not welcome anywhere they go. I heard they're secretly supported by Samura, but still, that's barely enough to supply a fleet, even if you tie robery and everything else. Outcasts are pretty much the same case.
There are many things that don't make any sense, actually... and one created another, in a try to make previous nonsense make sense.
Given that the Corsairs control a reasonable portion of space and thus access to a load of minerals required to make ships, a capital fleet for them is not that far fetched. Not to mention they have quite a few 'gas producing' solar bodies which makes fuel easy to get, in addition to raids on the GMG a few jumps away. Being neutral with the Junkers means fencing artifacts is childs play (with a lot of revenue), they take in good profit from Bretonian and Rheinland piracy, support from Hogosha, (Possibly from FA and Samura as well, but Xiphos knows so much better than I do) and to be honest, Zoners shouldn't (at least before the 0-49 mess...and that little war a while back) feel too threatened by Corsairs as they are essentially the only reason Crete isn't starved to death.
But really, the Zoner cap debate has been going on for a long time now so there's not much of a point to this thread.
Edit: As it turns out, Darth already explained this but I'll keep it here.
about the sharing of zoner / order tech - is there any serious RP about the sharing of capital ship tech between those factions? - if so - got any links to check how well it was done, how long it has been going and what it has focussed on... .
atm - the hathor / conference mk1 sharing was just a little something i introduced in 4.84 ( was it 84? whatever ) to give the hathor a little bit of background. but it was never really intended for those factions to become transparent in terms of weapon tech.
zoners do not go around and tell others that their nephilim is based on an alien ship ( at least they are not supposed to do so, not even to allies ) - actually - zoners are not supposed to admit that they HAVE ships of that kind at all to anyone ( as it was said in the ID card of the old juggernaut ... not even zoners know they exist unless they "need to know" )
[the above is just the lore and does not/cannot reflect actual ingame RP, cause that would be stupid]
How many of Zoner bases actually do make sense?
For example Gran Canaria is real obstacle both to Zoner and Corsair RP, as it actually accomplishes their goals.
Also Corfu or Freeport 9? One of them should go. Check how well Freeport 9 is populated, it doesn't make much sense to have Corfu nearby.
Omicron-74's still Guard system, so I don't consider it to be part of RP. Both planets in Kappa are only nominally Zoner.
And after all, try to remember what's the goal of vanilla Zoners. To stay away from civilisation. Not to spread it.
(08-27-2013, 11:37 PM)Jinx Wrote: about the sharing of zoner / order tech - is there any serious RP about the sharing of capital ship tech between those factions? - if so - got any links to check how well it was done, how long it has been going and what it has focussed on...
If you take a gander at the number of Zoners throughout Sirius, you'll find that it is considerably less than the majority of other factions (excluding Gran Canaria's screwed up population, as that was a dev mistake).
I do not think it out of the realm of possibilities for the Zoners to have built a Neph or an Aquil; but I do think it is out of the realm of possibilities for them to have produced the number you see flying around when ZonerZonerZoner happens.
Contrary to what others have said, Zoners are soldiers. They are teachers, poets, conmen, corporate suits, mechanics, etc etc. Being a Zoner doesn't define what you do - it means you've chosen to live outside of house space. You've chosen to give up some comforts and security for freedom.
So yes, they can defend themselves. Thing is, due to their scattered numbers and loose affiliation to one another - diplomacy and neutrality serve them better as a means of defending themselves. Resorting to violence should be a last resort; not a first one.
You want in game support for this (non vanilla, dev added)? Look at Omega-49 and Gran Canaria. What did Zoners do there when threatened by the Bretonian Crown? Send warships to kreig all red? No. They made a deal with the Corsairs and let them die defending the system.
Erie in Penn is more (dev added) support for this. Zoners didn't amass a war fleet to defend the planet. They let Liberty come in under an agreement and protect them. Did the Zoners raise a fleet to reclaim Erie when it was clear letting Liberty in was a mistake? Nope. Some left, others live under the old agreement.
(08-28-2013, 03:48 PM)Daedric Wrote: If you take a gander at the number of Zoners throughout Sirius, you'll find that it is considerably less than the majority of other factions (excluding Gran Canaria's screwed up population, as that was a dev mistake).
I do not think it out of the realm of possibilities for the Zoners to have built a Neph or an Aquil; but I do think it is out of the realm of possibilities for them to have produced the number you see flying around when ZonerZonerZoner happens.
+23
(08-28-2013, 03:48 PM)Daedric Wrote: Contrary to what others have said, Zoners are soldiers. They are teachers, poets, conmen, corporate suits, mechanics, etc etc. Being a Zoner doesn't define what you do - it means you've chosen to live outside of house space. You've chosen to give up some comforts and security for freedom.
True. My TAZ characters are zoners, but they are also popes of the cloth and warriors ( thats aside from being various degrees of stark raving bonkers).
For an even better example, look at Doc Holliday. He's a pope, a doctor, a zoner and a fighter.
Zoners can be just about anything, but the problem rises when you have a bunch of people who want to be 'all-krieging' super tough conqueror zoners and dont care if they mess things up for other zoners.
(08-28-2013, 03:48 PM)Daedric Wrote: So yes, they can defend themselves. Thing is, due to their scattered numbers and loose affiliation to one another - diplomacy and neutrality serve them better as a means of defending themselves. Resorting to violence should be a last resort; not a first one.
How do they design, build and maintain a carrier, a juggernaut and two cruiser lines with their scattered numbers and loose affiliation?*
I mean in history there's always been a perceived common cause when undertaking huge production feats, the Pharaohs' pyramids and the crucial beliefs in afterlife, Hitler's notion of Lebensraum or Cold War US notion of "defence of the free world" and so on and so forth.
What's the Zoner common goal, what is uniting them all under the same banner when undertaking his huge and seemingly impossible task? The story really lacks something imho.
*Not taking the diplomatic aspect of them arming themselves into account here, which is another muddled area.
I'm not sure why 'how do they design' is even asked. Why wouldn't Zoners have engineers and ship designers in their ranks? Ever think some of the people who do that line of work get tired of the house laws?
As for building....I'll point to Lividia; a shipyard.
Maintenance? That is the reason I say I don't think they should have very many. In my eyes, the ones that do exist would always be in a state of ongoing repairs, with make shift fixes keeping the ship running most of the time. I'm not one who would say that Zoners would design ships for war. I'm of the mind they would design them to push further into the unknown and away from the houses. Thus, exploration and colony ships.
(08-28-2013, 05:33 PM)Daedric Wrote: I'm not sure why 'how do they design' is even asked. Why wouldn't Zoners have engineers and ship designers in their ranks? Ever think some of the people who do that line of work get tired of the house laws?
Sure, but designing a huge war-capable spaceship is something you would need lots of engineers for. Lots and lots. And not only that, but also individuals with unique specialized skills that are highly coveted by all capital ship producing factions, as well as a looooot of resources to allow for mistakes/ "learning-by-doing" in the design process.
To put things into perspective with a real life example, China still can't design a functioning aircraft carrier from ground up - even though it has been their declared goal since the 70's - but have had to buy a number of ex Soviet carriers to reverse engineer. Still all they've managed to do is to rebuild and refit (and rename) the ex-Soviet Varyag carrier. And China is generally perceived as a strong production power with a lot of engineers, a huge workforce and vast resources as well as strong unity/a common goal.
Maybe it's just me, but I'd like a bit more depth to the story than "some of the folks leaving House politics behind to live life as Zoners were also engineers so they designed and built 4 separate capital ship lines in 20 years because they felt like it".
(08-28-2013, 05:33 PM)Daedric Wrote: As for building....I'll point to Lividia; a shipyard.
Again, maybe it's a detail thing but just because you have "a shipyard" it doesn't mean it can churn out anything and everything. It's vague to put it mildly. The Rogues have a shipyard in Cassini, could they just go ahead and construct a couple of lines of battleship just like that if they felt like it? Also this is a technicality, but Livadia is in former Guard O74, i.e. a non-lore system created by the former owners. Livadia can't really be used as an argument for anything, it was the agreement that Guard systems would be non-lore back when they were made.
EDIT: All in all, I wouldn't mind that Zoners have those 4 lines of caps, I would just like some mention of how it was at all possible, and some logical diplomatic consequences to Zoners having armed themselves to that extent. I'd like a story that's more credible than the ones about Unicorns and Santa Claus - not that they can't be true, I just find them very implausible. I, as a medium intelligent "reader of the text", have to make some very big leaps of imagination, fill in a huge blank map everytime a Neph pops up on scanner range, and I think we could do better; mostly to the benefit of the Zoner NPC faction as a whole.