To all Bounty Hunters, Junkers, and the Liberty Navy

[Athenian]

The thread is based on several flawed premises:

1) That Junkers know about the Kusari deal - that is the metagaming/powergaming part, from what I can see.

There are countless ways to ensure that a destroyed Junker ship retains no evidence of its demise.

2) That the Liberty navy can decide what is and is not unlawful and therefore against the rules for BHG id'd players, which is effectively trying to enforce non canon RP.

The power to control what is the law (and by extension the rules) in one house should not lie in the hands of one player.

If the Junkers are to be regarded by the lawful House authorities as having the same standing as any other innocent law abiding citizen, despite the many pieces of evidence compiled against them over the years by anyone with a scanner and knowlegde of the criminal underworld, then I will eat my hat, sing "She'll Be Coming Round the Mountain" and dance a jig. I recall posting heaps and heaps of scans of Junkers smuggling. But I am so damned tired of that stupid bloody "screenshot" button...

I'm ill of being told how to play. I know how to play. I just don't think I should have to use photobucket to play properly. No one else does. I won't roleplay when it leaves me no room to manouvere at all. One person says "I know about this". Game over for a ID for a vanilla faction. The end.

But any of this doesn't affect the Junker's general reputation status in the Houses. They remain always on the periphery. They should remain there. So that means, no they don't get to be banned from landing on planets. But when they get shot up, no one should care. Try shooting them near a station. See? No one cares. Just as no one cares if you shoot up a BHG npc. A life spent looking over your shoulder is the consequence of being quasi-unlawful.

In space, no one can hear you make a formal complaint to the local authorities.

You'd think with a bloody war on, "Who would bloody care?"

3) That the original poster was roleplaying, and, considering he tried the "you are breaking the rules" route only to find that failed, that this is an attempt to kill off consequences for being what are now effectively Zoners, Part II.

Junkers - Neutral, innocent, untouchable.
Allies - Everyone
Enemies - Some guy called Nagasaki

They sell scrap. Do they pay taxes I wonder? Would they want people knowing anything about them? Could they find no other route to resolving this? Use jumpholes? Keep to yourself? Stay off the radar? No.
May happily float around the trade lanes and have anyone attacking you either sanctioned/branded "illegal" by the Liberty authorities.
May not be worried about illegal activities because the other player has carpal tunnel from pressing "PrintScreen".
Ships allowed: That frigate thing.

4) Agmen's post was invis'd (sorry) because it doesn't reflect the official faction response to this unsporting and ungentlemanly turn of events. I invis'd it and requested moderators to lock/invis this thread. I'm sure Agmen will suggest I use "the cage" to cool off again.

We could salvage the thread. If only we had a junker.

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Former member of "the most paranoid group of people in the community"
Discovery Community Forum Rules

[McNeo]

Im going to call you on your second point.

2) That the Liberty navy can decide what is and is not unlawful and therefore against the rules for BHG id'd players, which is effectively trying to enforce non canon RP.

The power to control what is the law (and by extension the rules) in one house should not lie in the hands of one player.

I wrote the law in its entirity, yes.

It also went passed Jihadjoe, Zapp and Kingvaliant (all the people who matter) as well as several others, such as Teschy and Contaan. One person huh? I wish, I'd love to be as laid back as Joe. So actually, no, policy is not decided by one person. It's decided by three seperate official factions ([LN], =LSF= and LPI-), which together represent the lawmakers in their respective house (since we dont have a roleplayed government).

Non-cannon RP? And how exactly are Junkers meant to play the role of quasi-legality if they are not afforded the basic rights of the house they reside in? The only real life example I can think of this is people of white skin colour in Zimbabwe, to be honest. Does Liberty look anything like Zimbabwe to you? But of course, real life comparisons mean nothing.

I recall posting heaps and heaps of scans of Junkers smuggling.

Support this with a link and I'll go over the evidence with the rest of the team.

You'd think with a bloody war on, "Who would bloody care?"

We are not waging total war, its simply business. War is a good excuse to not do things, but this particular war is by no means incapacitating to the Navy. Its more like a war which we could probably win without deploying the majority of the theoretical force at our disposal. Of course, the reason why we can't deploy full force is due to certain security issues within the borders of Liberty, including but not limited to heaps of mercenaries, outcasts, rogues, hackers, generic pirates, many ***zomg here I am*** morphs, unioners, the odd hessian transport... and so on.

[Jihadjoe]

If we find junkers and BHG shooting each other up in Liberty space, we'll just arrest all the junkers participating, and then arrest all the BHG participating. We'll in RP question both parties, and determine the reason the fight was happening. Once that's done we'll press charges against the most guilty party.

Simple huh? I'll go and start a new thread where I put that in roleplay.

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[EisenSeele]

The thread is based on several flawed premises:

1) That Junkers know about the Kusari deal - that is the metagaming/powergaming part, from what I can see.

There are countless ways to ensure that a destroyed Junker ship retains no evidence of its demise.

Actually, the members of the congress had already known about this for quite some time as several of them had survived attempts on their lives... with the whole "you're wanted by such and such" spiel before some hunter tried and failed to off em. That bit's actually concrete. Also, there are countless MORE ways to ensure that a destroyed Junker ship retains evidence of its demise. All that it takes is one sloppy Hunter - not that hunters are a covert force that should be used to assassinating people and leaving no traces anyway.

2) That the Liberty navy can decide what is and is not unlawful and therefore against the rules for BHG id'd players, which is effectively trying to enforce non canon RP.

Each nation has already set forth a codex of laws under the heading of the Laws of Sirius. Among said codex are the Laws of Liberty which have a clause that includes provisions for assault. As none of the instances of BGH| attacking junkers were actually from Junker-side provocation, this is most definitely assault and thus illegal in Liberty. Since the Hunters are bound by the law of the land (in bretonia they enforce bretonian law, in liberty they enforce libertonian law and so on) they must understand the laws of the land that they operate in. That being said, everyone in a particular house space is bound by the laws of the house in question. Put the two together, and you've got a Hunter knowingly assaulting innocent civilians (at least in liberty). This makes the bounty itself call for illegal actions to take place - which makes the bounty itself illegal if enforced within house space with provisions for assault.

The power to control what is the law (and by extension the rules) in one house should not lie in the hands of one player.

A whole bunch of players got together to put the laws of Liberty together.

If the Junkers are to be regarded by the lawful House authorities as having the same standing as any other innocent law abiding citizen, despite the many pieces of evidence compiled against them over the years by anyone with a scanner and knowlegde of the criminal underworld, then I will eat my hat, sing "She'll Be Coming Round the Mountain" and dance a jig. I recall posting heaps and heaps of scans of Junkers smuggling. But I am so damned tired of that stupid bloody "screenshot" button...

From what I could understand of what was written above, you're choosing the "some of them might be criminals so lets treat em all as criminals" route. By this logic, all freelancers and mercenaries are fair game for attacking without warning. In terms of RP - the junkers are quasi legal and are universally accepted by law enforcement (as in one cannot simply shoot at a junker for being a junker). (as a side note, hats are a great source of fiber if that's the kind of thing you like).

I'm ill of being told how to play. I know how to play. I just don't think I should have to use photobucket to play properly. No one else does. I won't roleplay when it leaves me no room to manouvere at all. One person says "I know about this". Game over for a ID for a vanilla faction. The end.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but it seems to have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

But any of this doesn't affect the Junker's general reputation status in the Houses. They remain always on the periphery. They should remain there. So that means, no they don't get to be banned from landing on planets. But when they get shot up, no one should care. Try shooting them near a station. See? No one cares. Just as no one cares if you shoot up a BHG npc. A life spent looking over your shoulder is the consequence of being quasi-unlawful.

In space, no one can hear you make a formal complaint to the local authorities.

You'd think with a bloody war on, "Who would bloody care?"

The hunters may believe that picking and choosing particular laws to follow when most convenient is a-ok (its your opinion and you're entitled to it) but that attitude will garner serious RP consequences... especially since it involves shooting up innocent civilians - which is apparently a big no-no in Liberty Law - something which endures through the war with Rheinland.

Regardless of whether or not anyone would 'care' (the Law enforcement feedback that this posting had received indicates that Liberty does in fact care about its laws) the Hunters are not allowed to partake in illegal actions or participate in unlawful bounties period.

3) That the original poster was roleplaying, and, considering he tried the "you are breaking the rules" route only to find that failed, that this is an attempt to kill off consequences for being what are now effectively Zoners, Part II.

Junkers - Neutral, innocent, untouchable.
Allies - Everyone
Enemies - Some guy called Nagasaki

I'm sorry, was my writing not to your liking? It was most definitely roleplaying since I was playing the role of a Junker who just found out that the Hunters were fulfilling illegal bounties on his comrades. If the Liberty Navy started taking potshots at Bounty Hunters because the Junkers issued a bounty on them (which is wrong on so many levels) wouldn't you react as a Hunter? I found postings of transports and liners being destroyed without any demands - I believed that to be a breach of the rules so I posted it as a curiosity posting in the rules section to find out whether or not it's legit.

Complaining that hunters are hunting junkers under unlawful bounties is hardly to be unexpected.
As for the Zoners Part 2 comment, you're stretching it way out of proportion. We shouldn't be getting hunted by the BHG for no reason other than our IDs to begin with.

They sell scrap. Do they pay taxes I wonder? Would they want people knowing anything about them? Could they find no other route to resolving this? Use jumpholes? Keep to yourself? Stay off the radar? No.
May happily float around the trade lanes and have anyone attacking you either sanctioned/branded "illegal" by the Liberty authorities.
May not be worried about illegal activities because the other player has carpal tunnel from pressing "PrintScreen".
Ships allowed: That frigate thing.

Is there even a tax mechanic in this game?

Junkers are necessary for cleaning up the debris around planets - sorta like the garbage collectors of today... though You don't see people taking potshots at them.

There are plenty of ways by which a junker may be attacked... Illegally by a Bounty Hunter is not one of them. Notice how the Junkers may pirate outside of house space only (notice how the laws of house space don't extend to outside of house space) this would be the only legit place for a hunter to attack an innocent Junker.

Long story short - secretive + not combat intensive faction =/= fair game for getting shot by hunters for absolutely no reason other than for being a junker.

4) Agmen's post was invis'd (sorry) because it doesn't reflect the official faction response to this unsporting and ungentlemanly turn of events. I invis'd it and requested moderators to lock/invis this thread. I'm sure Agmen will suggest I use "the cage" to cool off again.

If it isn't too much work, could you restore the comment? It's rather strange that a widely publicized broadcast statement from a prominent member of the BGH would just simply ret-con-poof. (also it makes me look like a schitzophrenic when I reference things that aren't there anymore)

We could salvage the thread. If only we had a junker.

I see what you did there.

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FEEDBACK

[Agmen of Eladesor]

Three things:
First, this particular thread is beyond redemption and I'm going to lock it. There is a nice RP thread started now that we can do our RP now.

Second, EisenSeele - if you're going to make an in-RP post, please put it in RP, and NOT just a flat blast out there that may or may not be in-RP.

Third, it's the BHG|, NOT the BGH. (Sorry if that last seems nitpicking, but still...)

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.