1. fight in own ground, in explosive gas clouds and lower visibility, what allowing the use of guerrilla struggle.
2. as a monopolist in create F-Fuel GMG had a lot of money - enought to bribe smuglers and traders to bring whatever they need in battlefield.
3. dissatisfaction of rheinland nation and massive loss of money and people could adversely affect the morale.
4. guerilla fight includes not only surprise attack, but also poisoning, destruction, stopping the supply.
5. all we know that SCRA (Coalition) fights with Navy - so there is a option that SCRA support in secret fight with Rheinland Fleet.
taking into account the facts GMG could win the War...
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in my opinion is another matter that is a mystery to me ...
how on earth, Gallia formed?
In Original FL opening, there are 4 Slipperships, and after they arive whole star system was destroyed by Nomads.
You state that an extroadinary military can not be beaten by a minor power using guerilla tactics? Vietnam War anyone? I disagree on that point, a war can be won in that manner, however I do find it hard to believe they caused the amount of devastation they did via guerilla tactics.
Dream Theater - "Sabre120 and Jongleur officially win. That is all."
' Wrote:Nope, its not that. They got militarily annihilated over those 80 years.
Where do you take this information from? They weren't annihilated, "just" heavily damaged. I think the destruction of the Rheinland Navy was not as bad as it was during the Nomad War for example (where they were left with just one battleship at the end of it, etc.). But it was bad enough for the Military to not be able/not want to stop the impending Popular Revolution that happened soon after.
Basically the 80 years war worked like this: Rheinland had tactics based around steamrolling your opponent with large numbers of very heavy capital ships. These capital ships upon entering the Crow nebula ended up having to fight in an environment where they could not detect the enemy (the GMG used pretty much exclusively small groups of fighters to perform hit and run warfare in many areas at once - which is always hard to respond to effectively), but the enemy could sure as hell detect them (capital ships are easily detectable in the Crow nebula while small ships are not due to interference - there is some rumour/infocard ingame about this but I won't look for it now).
So basically over the course of 80 years every single capital ship that was sent to Sigma-13 was eventually targeted and then disabled/destroyed with the attackers fleeing before the rest of the fleet could catch up. It was a war of attrition where Rheinland was simply unable to respond due to both their archaic tactics and the massively difficult terrain to defend yourself in (you can't detect the enemy as he's coming from long range, until he is basically on top of you) as opposed to GMG's fast hit and run where they could pick their battles, and GMG's equipment working so much better in nebula pockets.
The reason why Rheinland withdrew in the end was a mix of a slow but definite economic collapse at home (you can't sustain a war economy for hundreds of years, and Rheinland had to be bailed out by Liberty after the war - reason why Synth Foods owns Stuttgart today), large scale societal unrest (resulting in the Popular Revolution which completely transformed Rheinland politics and the state itself) and a final realisation that this fight basically cannot be won without dragging Kusari into the war (they tried outlasting the GMG, and the GMG ended up outlasting them in the end, while always pushing on ever harder thanks to their large fund reserves). This all can be mirrored in modern conflicts, but I will save the comparisons for if they are necessary.
GMG was secretly supported by Kusari at that time. Also, if you want to compare it with the 20th century events, check the Vietnam war. USA lost and left Vietnam, while North Vietnam was secretly armed by China as well.
In the history, many times the stronger has lost by the weaker, the 80 Years War is not an exception.
' Wrote:No idea about Teutoberg forest, but how large was "technological gap" there and really, did Romans lost everything? We're talking about technologically advanced militaries here.
After actually looking this up properly, it fits almost perfectly- especially for the final act of the war that resulted in the Yanagi debris field. Check this
600 Yrs ago GMG didn't leave house space and go into the Sigmas with the sole purpose of just mining. They also went there to occupy it as it's own. The GMG name itself is a misnomer admitted by the GMG NPCs themselves. Rheinland NPCs also make the admission that they thought GMG was just a bunch of miners but found it belatedly that they weren't simply just that. GMG is the first group of people to have left house space and has existed before many of FL's factions came into being (by lore). The Microsoft Devs that created GMG didn't do a quick paced job of slapping in the GMG as a swift add-on. They spent a rather large amount of time on GMG's backstory and the effect in the surrounding area. There is huge amounts of Vanilla lore associated with GMG. It was inteded that they won the war, it was intended that they be that strong, it was intended that the fuel wasn't to be in house hands.
The Eighty Year War was almost initially lost by a steamrolling tactic that Rheinland used. Rheinland even managed to claim Naha in 13 as their own for a period (mind you I believe there is a rumour of GMG's mentioning that they willingly fell back and allowed the claim so that can regroup and take it back later). Another aspect of GMG that Rheinland didn't account for was it's symbiotic ties to Kusari and GMG's perpetual heavy involvement in the underworld. A RM rumour was able to point out both those facts. Kusari was very helpful because Aomori is in Honshu and Kusari was not gonna allow RM's fleet to come into Honshu. This provided a base of operations free from threat. Kusari also provided covert support the same way US gave covert support to Afghanistan. GMG is currently still paying the war taxes from this part. The unlawful ties at this period could not have been with BD since GMG didn't start funding the BD until the war taxes got uncermosniously raised by the Emporer. I beleive GMG was fully partnered with the Corsairs at this time with the artifact trade. Still when it comes right down to the actual fighting there is no mention of any forces but GMG's fighting the Rheinland fleet. And I would also like to make this correction; FL lore was clear that Rheinland, out of frustration, sent their entire fleet into Sigma-13 in that final confrontation. The infocards state fully that GMG wiped out the entire fleet. None made it home, all gone. One little group did break free of the massacre but their wrecks can be found in another part of 13 having been the victims of an ambush over there.
Presently GMG has far more then doubled in size and thanks to Kishiro our technology is even better. Arguably top-class tech. Based on the history of GMG I can fully RP getting into a war with a house without fear of an automatic loss. I can ignore opinionated flames that attempt to contradict this point and rightfully assume that GMG has a chance at winning. I imagine there isn't much more argument out there then "but they are just miners" at which point I direct you to look at the infocard from RM where they said the same thing "but they were just a bunch of miners.....Q_Q"
I hope you're not assuming that the GMG has a chance at winning an offensive war against a house or either of the largest pirate factions, given their distance from GMG home territory.
That would be a misinterpretation, given your own description of the 80 years war as a largely defensive one where the RM could not strike at the last bastion when they had the chance for political reasons. And then, the RM fought on the GMG's terms, an offensive war is the other way around.
Just sayin'.
On the actual topic though, as hard to believe as it may be when you look at the systems ingame, the GMG did successfully outmaneuver, outlast and outsmart the Rheinland Military of old. It would be, however, silly to think that the RM have not learned from that misstep, especially given the popular unrest afterwards. Nevertheless, the GMG are not to be trifled with, and mining to them is probably like fishing for treasure to someone in the forces. Relaxing and profitable, with their sidearm not that far away.
Actually, now that I think about it, Gallia is doing to Sirius what the RM tried to do to the GMG, amirite? Anyone gonna bet on how that ends?
I agree, for the most part, with McNeo's assessment about the offensive. In fact, Doc Jamieson can confirm that I believe that GMG will fail at claiming Beta for many reasons.
1.) GMG in Beta = GMG outside of their clouds
This is a significant point because this puts GMG out of the element they have so much experience in.
2.) Unlike being on a defensive, to maintain an offensive a constant supply line is needed. This takes serious long distance logisics. I can fully admit that GMG has no experience in warfare that requires maintaining long distance logistics. In fact to defend it's space it most likely took every pilot they can get (I'm even inclined to believe that to this day even the lowest GMG member has rudimentary training in combat). So I'm more of the opinion that if GMG were to be on an offensive against a house it would require all ships and thus leave Sigmas undefended (a portion of a house like a single system that neighbour's GMG space may be a different matter).
3.) Just as Rheinland underestimated GMG in it's own element this attempt on Beta is a sign that GMG is underestimating the Outcasts in their own element. Outcasts have been fighting in asteroid clouds for generations, particularly in the Taus. Being in the asteroids against GMG is pretty similar to GMG being in the gas clouds against RM. The playing field favours the locals.
4.) Motivation. GMG NPCs are, by lore, very serious grudge holders. They fight their enemies because they really really want to. The grudge RP present in NPC rumours is very thick. For over a century following the 80 Yr War the GMG routinely raided Mannheim in Frankfurt and murdered Kruger personnel with impunity (RM infocards can confirm this). On GMG's side the NPCs declare such actions with what appears to be pride and glee. The enmity they hold against Corsairs and Hogosha is the clearest examples. Both are to be attacked openly and with extreme prejudice. No questions. The sheer lack of fear and respect GMG has for the Corsairs is written out in plain English in-game (and it's not that GMG doesn't know much about Corsairs, they used to be partners for a very long time in past history). But with Outcasts there is no grudge or animosity displayed by GMG NPCs. There is a desire for commercializing Beta resources and there is even hints of respect shown by GMG pilots concerning Outcast pilots. Not the respect of friendship but GMG NPCs mention that the Outcast pilots are the first pilots they met with enough skill to give the GMG a bit of a pause. This is the nature of Cardimine boosting the OCs while experience boosts the GMG. Still there is no grudge held by GMG to the NPCs, it's business. So motivation plays a factor.
Even despite my opinion about what is going on in Beta between GMG and OCs I am far from ready to state that GMG would flat out lose in any offensive. The sheer amount of experience GMG has had in it's history with combat and their track record of successes provides more then enough evidence that anyone facing a potential all-out GMG assault would take the matter very very seriously and not dismiss it as inconsequential. Such a casual dismissall could cost someone a planet. There is another group that has successfully taken on a house navy and won. While they didn't decimate the fleet they did win that war on the offensive. A very significant thing to do on the offensive considering supply lines and such. KNF has gained itself some serious boasting power as well and it can be certain that GMG leaders raised an eyebrow at that feat and are reassessing their arrogant opnion that it would take a minimum combined effort of two houses to take us out of the Sigmas.
edit add: we are learning, in RP, long distance logistics and the Rh BS plays a role with that. Upcoming Sakhalin Shipyards too will hopefully play a part in very long term RP towards proper growth of a fleet (as opposed to the caps having been so hastily slapped on the GMG ID in the past) but any of that is long down the road. Long enough that the mod may not exist to see end result, just the journy.
' Wrote:600 Yrs ago GMG didn't leave house space and go into the Sigmas with the sole purpose of just mining. They also went there to occupy it as it's own. The GMG name itself is a misnomer admitted by the GMG NPCs themselves. Rheinland NPCs also make the admission that they thought GMG was just a bunch of miners but found it belatedly that they weren't simply just that. GMG is the first group of people to have left house space and has existed before many of FL's factions came into being (by lore). The Microsoft Devs that created GMG didn't do a quick paced job of slapping in the GMG as a swift add-on. They spent a rather large amount of time on GMG's backstory and the effect in the surrounding area. There is huge amounts of Vanilla lore associated with GMG. It was inteded that they won the war, it was intended that they be that strong, it was intended that the fuel wasn't to be in house hands.
The Eighty Year War was almost initially lost by a steamrolling tactic that Rheinland used. Rheinland even managed to claim Naha in 13 as their own for a period (mind you I believe there is a rumour of GMG's mentioning that they willingly fell back and allowed the claim so that can regroup and take it back later). Another aspect of GMG that Rheinland didn't account for was it's symbiotic ties to Kusari and GMG's perpetual heavy involvement in the underworld. A RM rumour was able to point out both those facts. Kusari was very helpful because Aomori is in Honshu and Kusari was not gonna allow RM's fleet to come into Honshu. This provided a base of operations free from threat. Kusari also provided covert support the same way US gave covert support to Afghanistan. GMG is currently still paying the war taxes from this part. The unlawful ties at this period could not have been with BD since GMG didn't start funding the BD until the war taxes got uncermosniously raised by the Emporer. I beleive GMG was fully partnered with the Corsairs at this time with the artifact trade. Still when it comes right down to the actual fighting there is no mention of any forces but GMG's fighting the Rheinland fleet. And I would also like to make this correction; FL lore was clear that Rheinland, out of frustration, sent their entire fleet into Sigma-13 in that final confrontation. The infocards state fully that GMG wiped out the entire fleet. None made it home, all gone. One little group did break free of the massacre but their wrecks can be found in another part of 13 having been the victims of an ambush over there.
Presently GMG has far more then doubled in size and thanks to Kishiro our technology is even better. Arguably top-class tech. Based on the history of GMG I can fully RP getting into a war with a house without fear of an automatic loss. I can ignore opinionated flames that attempt to contradict this point and rightfully assume that GMG has a chance at winning. I imagine there isn't much more argument out there then "but they are just miners" at which point I direct you to look at the infocard from RM where they said the same thing "but they were just a bunch of miners.....Q_Q"
Well, there is a BIG difference in warfare in industrialized (Vietnam, Afghanistan) and non industrialized society. Due to my overall laziness and poor English skills for discussing such matters, I'll have to write it shorter then it should be written, and as a result it will be quite chaotic. Sorry for that.
In non-industrialized societies there's much less difference between those with top-notch technology, and those without one at all (above-mentioned Touteberg forest). That is due to resources required to create a modern army. As you can see through history, the cost of creating and equipping an army / average cost per soldier/ was constantly going up - due to newer and more advanced tech required, which itself required alot more human and material resources and production capabilities and capacities. And money - I DO NOT put money under the resources term since its not always same or needed, although they are needed in... well, economy type we all are familiar with. (There're others as well, that work way better in full-mobilization conditions for all-out wars, but we're not talking bout them atm.)
To my knowledge, GMG lacked everything but money. They had low numbers (just check on population of those bases GMG has.. damn, even if you increase it by 10 times for whatever odd reason), their industrial production capabilities and capacities were non-existant compared to Rheinland's (and if you say the opposite - can you please provide... the location of such capabilities? Rheinland has shipyards, lots of bases and, most importantly, industrialized planets. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is down and I really cant find the numbers of Rheinlands population base at that time, also cant find all GMG bases added in Disco and other important stuff, but it doesn't change the overall picture I guess.
To build a mere fighter from 0 you will need production chains consisting out of hundred(s) of factories, starting from resource refineries, metallurgy and ending with high-end electronics production and advanced composite materials (and its just the today's day, Im not talking about FL universe with its more advanced tech, like these nanocapacitors or some other stuff we all saw in commodities list), most of which are still coming from planets. Of course a large chunk of this can be bought, what will of course affect your bank account.
So, GMG had the money, and could and should afford alot of foreign support in the form of equipment, technology, human resources, supplies. Just like Vietnam (heavily supported by China and Soviets) and Afghanistan - heavily supported by Pakistan (bases there - Aomori anyone?) USA,, Arabs). And these 2 are examples of completely opposite - These are the examples how the advanced military was hammering guerrilla forces that were actively supported by another "half" of the world, even with all political limitations connected with Human rights etc. (Dammit, people, remember already - Vietnam and Afghanistan were NOT military defeats!! It were political decisions )
Kusari provided support to GMG - well, it could provide different types of support (technology, equipment, supplies, manpower) in limited amounts. Like USA&Co to Afghani or USSR&Co to Vietnamese. That would allow them to actually hold out for a bit longer and not fall apart right after initial Rheinland assault, but in no way be enough to defeat Rheinland's military. Well, you see, Kusari couldnt mobilize their economy to fight the war for GMG, cause it'd be the act of war.
And as far as I know, GMG was not getting that much income out of their mining activity during the war (well, due to obvious reasons of their main souce income being occupied by Rheinland's military). I find it extremly hard to believe they could hold out for many decades, while at same time increasing their numbers, improving technology and waging the war, suffering losses, with the money they acquired before. (All this from 1 station :lol:-- Well, I wont be using this as an argument due to, well, game-engine restrictions. Since in RL everything would be bigger and in waaay bigger numbers then we see it in game) Well, im not saying their income was at 0 level (I am aware of artifact business and all), but I guess it was severely cut down.
Also, this is something I wont use as an argument too, because it goes into "What If's" category, BUT:
Rheinland was using same tactic over 80 years, losing constantly. They're... THAT dumb? Hard to believe.
Now, the second option is... Freelancer warfare = Stone Age to prior the "gunpowder age" or prior the Industrial age warfare. Everyone on relatively same tech level, no need for advanced production capabilities, bronze weapons are not THAT less effective then iron ones, you still become unconscious if I hit your steel helmet with a huge Rock axe. Err... somehow I feel its not what Freelancer universe is about (dont tell me about pirates having Capships in Disco mod without having actual means to produce them (just having a shipyard and a few bases with 1k population is NOT enough) - there's Common Sense and there's Balance. They quite often contradict each other in computer games, especially multiplayer based ones.)
Well, I have a feeling that after this discussion my PoV will remain is (not like anyone should care bout that, actually)) - They made em win. Which is... well, normal for a computer game. Yes, they could be powerfull, they can have even double or triple of that power today. Doesnt make them a match for one of the major house militaries, although.
Now, the fun part. Why I started all this? Because of recent changes to the mining mod. Which means the possibility of an open conflict between IMG and Kruger/Daumann, with the probable involvement of the Rheinland military, which will depend on how important Omega mining operations are for Rheinland economy and war effort. Which, IMO, would be very logical in case resources and materials coming from Omegas are vital for Rheinland, not speaking about cash income from Silver trade.
But I'd sincerely ask not to discuss this topic here, just saying. :)
P.S. Well, I tried to put it as short as I felt I could. Sorry for chaotic style, probably tons of grammatical errors, but I hope the main points are understandable.
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