How many people are like that? You're one of the very few I know who are.
If you want to make it engaging for the majority of people who see it as a grind rather than an RP opportunity, you have to first encourage people to spend time on their trade characters voluntarily, not because they feel that's the only way to make money. Invariably, they will be making money anyway, but time spent trading and interacting is time spent developing an RP and an attachment to that character.
There might be no point in discussing FLhook shinnanegans unless Cannon drops by, but I would argue that there's no point in discussing this issue if the only "solutions" that will originate from it will be methods to sweep the real problems under the carpet.
Trading factions do have trading events already and they are fun. But they are not what makes the most cash for your fighter chars.
Everyone has to decide if he wants to use his trader as a cash-cow for something else, which can't be anything but boring since it includes the easiest way to make the most cash per time;
or if he wants to have fun with his trader, which produces cash more or less as a byproduct of playing, but includes interesting routes and lots of RP.
There have been times I spend all of that byproduct in transport-training sessions in connecticut, taking on everyone who agreed to that.
' Wrote:for those who missed it: the moral of it all is ----> traders with teeth are fun for pirates. - within reason.
' Wrote:People here to RP not to RP a transport pilot.
Not necessarily the case. As McNeo pointed out, there are few, but there are a few of us, who get their kicks not by the RP of a shooter, but by the RP of a scrappy trader barely getting by or a merchant-prince. The problem comes in being allowed the ability to do so without becoming the sacrificial lamb of Sirius.
' Wrote:I'm working on an incredibly complex tree of achievements for Bowex traders. They're rediculous. There'll be images for each one, and some of them are patently insane, like "be a billion credits in debt" and "kill an npc battleship" and "Reverse Pirate a Pirate who is Pirating you"
They should be fun. More than meaningless, its a set of things to shoot for (which people like) and then pride points, which people like, and the things to shoot for are...weird.
Back in the day, the SCRA had a system similar to this in that we tasked the lower-level pilots to do fairly ridiculous things in paper-thin ships. One in particular was the "Hispania Memorum" where a new SCRA pilot would have to fly their light-fighter, unescorted, to the wreck of the Hispania in Omicron Alpha and take a guncam pic of them "writing their name on the hull of our forebearers". If they then put a message dump post detailing their exploits, they were rewarded with the Hispania Memorum medal (all in RP of course). This did help in their advancement potential, but was more a small non-game mechanic mission.
BAF does (or used to at least) hand out campaign ribbons for participation in certain sorties and mini-campaigns within the game itself. I've seen these in several people's signatures of the old-guard BAF. I did notice what looked like medals and awards being created for the LN as well as the IMG and RM.
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There used to be an FLHook mechanic that worked rather well that would adjust the price of a commodity at a certain base for a certain time. Example of this was the "Freeport 14 Water Shortage" where the price was FLHooked to be way above normal (something like 1k+ per unit) for a few days. It stimulated population in that system and those leading to it, gave DSE something to do with their barges (i believe it was DSE; someone delivered two barges full of water in a large convoy), and showed what can be done. The system was also used for Elder Sephardi (sp?) birthday bash on Crete, where food and lux food was boosted slightly for a set time period.
Problem with this approach is it needs administrative intervention, something the flock of admins at that time either did not have time for, or did not care enough about, to implement fully. Another requirement of this system was that it should not benefit your faction if you were the one applying for fixes. I know because I tried an idea using this system, and was intimated as much.
This system in particular has amazing potential. Greyhound Transport's supplying of the Shetland could actually be in RP and a bonus to them and other pilots. Freeport 10's contracted Solar panel upgrade with IC (or is it DSE?) could actually mean something for commodity prices. Heck, it could even be used without the huge notices by the dev/admin/economy team (does one man count as an economy team?) to quietly boost prices in certain areas, placing more the "discovery" element to the in-game experience.
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Unfortunately, most of this does boil down to something that you, Uns, and I have discussed many times, and has been discussed in our absences many times as well, and even in this thread, Lunaphase hits the nail on the head. Personally, when I'm trading, I don't want to see anyone, because I know it's going to cost me credits. Being able to play 20-30 hours a week is makes a huge difference than being able to play 2-3 hours a week, and the ability to amass credits has since 4.83 taken a massive hit (mining rush of early 4.85 notwithstanding). Combined with the (not wrongly) perceived notion of transports not being able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag, a seeming over-abundance of less-than-stellar players on unlawful characters, and the general lowering of income while rise in prices, taking that two, three, or five million credit hit during a run saps one's zeal for playing. That, however, is not the point of your thread overall, so I'll leave it at that.
' Wrote:or if he wants to have fun with his trader, which produces cash more or less as a byproduct of playing, but includes interesting routes and lots of RP.
This is what I've been doing since my very beginnings on the server. It was you who showed me how after all.
' Wrote:Personally, when I'm trading, I don't want to see anyone, because I know it's going to cost me credits.
I only trade when there is a chance of meeting somebody. I'm usually happy to meet a pirate and I very rarely have an unpleasant feeling about it.
I fly ships such as Grizzly, Mammoth, Behemoth, Democritus and Mastodon. Apart from the last one those are not very good moneymakers but it's not credits that makes me want to fly a transport anyways.
' Wrote:Unfortunately, most of this does boil down to something that you, Uns, and I have discussed many times, and has been discussed in our absences many times as well, and even in this thread, Lunaphase hits the nail on the head. Personally, when I'm trading, I don't want to see anyone, because I know it's going to cost me credits. Being able to play 20-30 hours a week is makes a huge difference than being able to play 2-3 hours a week, and the ability to amass credits has since 4.83 taken a massive hit (mining rush of early 4.85 notwithstanding). Combined with the (not wrongly) perceived notion of transports not being able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag, a seeming over-abundance of less-than-stellar players on unlawful characters, and the general lowering of income while rise in prices, taking that two, three, or five million credit hit during a run saps one's zeal for playing. That, however, is not the point of your thread overall, so I'll leave it at that.
I belong in this camp. Trading for me is an means to an end. That doesn't mean I aim to willingly break server rules or be a sore loser when my trader gets snagged. It means that my trader RP fulfills the absolute bare minimun requirements. Neither the law nor pirates get much in the way of scintillating conversation from my trader pilot. He'll pay up or blow up.
I understand that some players, like Unseelie, enjoy the trading experience and want to make it even more dynamic and entertaining. I support this kind of positive creativity.
Since everyone seems to be of the anti-grind sentiment, I suggest to following: Lower vessel and equipment prices. Simple and elegant.
CMF graces the problems with trading pretty heavily. I've noticed in this thread a lot of people who, apparently, don't like trading and have no interest in making it better...I do like trading, but I want it to be better.
Frankly, if you've got nothing helpful to contribute, or if you think we're all wasting our time trying to come up with ways to make -the mechanics of actually trading- more fun, please, stop invading this space and calling us all ninnies. It isn't helpful.
If you have a particular issue with a concept, as someone (I don't have the best memory) had an issue with the idea of badges, please explain why you think it would hurt the game, rather than simply saying you're disinterested in getting them.
Now, back to core concepts. There are things about how people work that makes them do things, even less than fun things, because there's an acheivement involved. Figuring out what these things are and then applying them to things, is called gamification. Games do it pretty well by assigning acheivement badges. Progress bars, and -rankings- is another very human motivation (many of us look at the people on the forum's posts and think we can post one more and be a bit higher up the rankings..and are motivated to post -something- based on that)
I often look through the lists of players online, to see who's level is highest. I like the ranking, and watching mine increase. Thats a nugget of an idea, right there.
Things that count as 'play' or 'challenge' through which, as a byproduct of, we make money, as Dodlike has highlighted, is what we're trying to come up with. New things. More than just "RP a trader" such that, hey, Meggidio might try it, spend three hours having -fun- and discover he's made a pile of credits.
So, back to what the thread's about: Can anyone come up with aspects of trading that can be given much more focus, and as such, draw attention to the trading?
I tend to come across more hostile than I feel, or something. Everyone feels as though they're upsetting me, or I'm upsetting people...most of this thread, I think is full of wonderful...
The break-point (I used to dislike grinding for credits just like anyone else) for me was seeing some competent traders harassing pirates by being extra slippery.
I was shown that trading can be as challenging and thrilling as any other activity and rewarding in terms of credits earned and satisfaction of beating pirates in the game that according to many favors them by far.
Sometimes you have to pay your way out but that's no different than loosing when playing any other role. The additional risk of loosing credits through cargo aboard just adds to it. I caught myself being thrilled far more when hauling high valuable cargo.
Also it would be awesome if transports didn't spin a wheel and could push smaller crafts out of their way. Just like a truck would do.
Not trying to pee in your Cheerios at all Uns, sorry if it comes across as such. I, too, enjoy the entertainment of the idea that trading in Disco as it is now can be fun. Unfortunately, it seems that the whole "community" needs to come together on an idea to help traders, and that's laughable in it's own right.
As for ideas, hmm. Picking apart the idea of badges and such, this would end up being the purview of factions. From personal experience, no one wants to have to fly around in a clydesdale in a faction when as an indie you can just go by that shire. Instead, making meaningful badges could work. But place a sort of monetary reward behind those badges and you've got something worth taking the time for.
ex: Bowex Employees 3rd Quarter Objectives:
- Obtain from any BMM employee (faction or indie) 10000 units of Niobium Ore, to be delivered to our good friends in Rheinland
- Deliver at least 5000 units of Engine Components to Scarborough station
- Deliver at least 5000 units of Fertilizers to Planet Cambridge
- At least two trips must be in assistance of Harris Refugees to Gran Canaria (Can be evacuation of Refugees, or delivery of minimum 2500units each food, clothes, water to Harris and/or Canaria
If an employee meets 2 of these goals, a 5 million credit bonus will be paid. 3 goals met and 10 million, 4 and 20 million. Along with this, All employees will receive a special pin.
You get the idea.
Positives:
- Faction leaders can conspire to provide activity in "dead" systems
- Creativity in objectives can lead to some interesting situations
- Spurs faction activity
- Incentivizes making runs to places, and carrying commodities, that do not necessarily have the highest return on investment
- Could possible be used in conjunction with the FLHook system for ingame pricing that was discussed earlier.
Negatives:
- Factionalized (but could be countered by FLHook system, incorporating IFF & ID)
- More work for faction leaders / devs / admins (if FLHook system is up)
- Costly for factions (could be remediated with faction donations to faction banks (Bowex used to do this) or admin intervention (highly doubtful .addcash usage)
- metagaming people could/would camp routes.
