That's quite simple. If you want 100% confidence, that noone've seen you, do your meeting on forums.
By logging ingame you're accepting the chance that you'll be caught with contraband/secret meeting/whatever you're trying to hide.
If you'd ask me, 100% confidence is boring.
Make special commoduty, which could be purchased on several unlawfull, or semi-lawfull faction's bases. This commoduty would be some kind of sensor's foolisher.
When someone scanns your ship, he see cargo you have, together with this foolisher. InRP, he would see something completely different. It's like having slaves in hold, and RPing, that they are just passengers. So, in this occasion, person, who just scanned your cargo with illegal stuff, screend, and reported evidence on forum, could not affect on you. His evidences could not be justified, because scanned ship had that "foolisher" on board.
In same time, police or military player can stop such ship, and ask to "open the trunk please!", RPing, like it's simple ship inspection.
Smuggler has to drop one of cargo unit, and being caught, or do not comply, and get "blown up"
Also, smuggler, can purchase a small portion of legal cargo, so if he gets caught in same situation, he could drop a unit of "fake" load to officer.
(02-13-2015, 08:51 AM)sindroms Wrote: Using cloaks to spy on enemy IDs is legit. Spying on IDs which get their fun out of being shady but not hostile is another.
We expect official factions not to do something stupid with cloaks for their own sake. It is currently the fastest way to get stripped of officialdom if the admin team deems that your impact on the server as a group is hindering roleplay in general. The actual problem are, as said, the untagged ships doing this.
The thing is, all we can hope to do in this case is to have faith in lawful factions to look at the context of whatever report they get from a cloaked indie. Whether or not it should be used, RP or not.
In the end, it is not the cloaking ship that is at fault. It is whoever is using that material as material for RP.
Hate to admit it, but I'm agreeing with Spazzy here.
Going along with this idea:
Quote:My problem with cloaks is that they have no countermeasure, apart from the obvious. From people following participants of group battles, only to uncloak when they are about to dock and telling them that they have fled the battle, to people using cloaked untagged ships in order to spy on other IDs that they would normally not be able to catch, which is the point of said IDs.
and this one
Quote:Make special commoduty, which could be purchased on several unlawfull, or semi-lawfull faction's bases. This commoduty would be some kind of sensor's foolisher....
It would be good if we had something along the lines of a PoB manufactured equipment such as:
1. Cargo Scanner Jammer - makes Cargo scanning impossible for a range of like 3-4k
2. Cloak Detector - can pick up cloaked ships on radar from a small/medium/large range (you could make different levels of the equipment). Ideally, the better the cloak detector, the more cargo it takes up. Good sound for its use would be like a sonar ping or something.
3. Cloak neutralizing torpedoes - makes players unable to cloak, similar to how CDs make players unable to cruise.
(02-13-2015, 01:42 AM)Garrett Jax Wrote: I've heard complaints recently about cloaked ships recording quasi-lawful activity and then acting upon it in RP. This could be a major activity hit for smugglers and quasi-lawful factions. This gets particularly nasty when the cloaked ship carries no tags. There is no way for the smuggler to know if and when he might be recorded. Is this detrimental to these smuggling factions? Should there be some sort of restrictions placed on this kind of espionage?
Please discuss, but do not mention specific incidents. I believe this to be a hot topic and I want this thread flame free.
Thanks.
I lead a (quasi-)lawful faction that has unlawful friends and does shady deals and the (ab)use of cloaky ships has rendered the roleplay of shadiness totally impossible. You'd have to metagame in a way that is completely killing every roleplay aspect and even then it is just an oorp cat&mouse game that is impossible to win.
The only question is: When will you be caught.
Not even the question: Will you be caught.
Cloaks are lame when it comes to intel gathering.
They have a detrimental effect on all the factions whose lore it is to do shady things that go unnoticed.
Yes, cloaky intel gathering should not be taken into account when it comes to things like FR5s.
They should not even be used in the way they are used (cheap running tools, and screw-them-over-hard intel tools).
And... just a side note: somehow it makes no sense that every guy in Sirius can have one. Some restriction would remove the unrealistic spread of this equipment to literally everybody. The amount of cloaky Warans... oh well. Cloaky troll transports... I don't know. For me, cloaks only make sense for a few selected IDs.
I am personaly sick of some people complaints of using cloaks.
Just because someone dont like them dosent mean they are bad, just because someone was discovered doing something with a cloak dosent mean it's not valid within RP.
Seriously people stop complaining about cloaking devices they are already prety useles with an ammo and CD tracking bug or CD recharging stop when kinetic weapon hits you.
Either stop complaining or just remowe them from the game so we can finaly stop listnening your QQ and crying, so you can finaly move to the next thing wich anoys you and you can start to QQ there.
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Having read everything in the thread up to this point, I personally agree that it would be kind of frustrating to have one's efforts thwarted by a single cloaked ship that is, as stated earlier, essentially uncounterable.
However, I don't feel that the best way to fix this is to remove or nerf cloaks.
It would be far more fun to do something like Highland Laddie (and perhaps some others, I missed earlier names) suggested, where POBs could manufacture items capable of detecting or disrupting cloaked vessels. That way, it no longer becomes a simple question of smugglers (or anyone else) getting nailed by a cloaked vessel without any means of defense, in a sense. It makes it into a more interactive and participatory experience.
I would say that it's not the simple presence of cloaks that's most frustrating, but just the sense of powerlessness that goes along with them. It's fun for the cloaked vessel, but not so much for everyone else. So, I feel that the best way to counteract that without removing the fun toys/potential of cloaking is to bring in countermeasures. That would transform it into less of a trip into paranoia and more into a potentially engaging RP for both sides...especially if a corporation/organization were to discover the name of someone who was spying on them. Counter-espionage would allow for a new dynamic in RP, and make stealth a bit less straightforward and easy. I think that would be a welcome change for both sides (except the people who just cloak to troll, but, that's a whole other issue).
(02-13-2015, 01:36 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: It would be good if we had something along the lines of a PoB manufactured equipment such as:
1. Cargo Scanner Jammer - makes Cargo scanning impossible for a range of like 3-4k
2. Cloak Detector - can pick up cloaked ships on radar from a small/medium/large range (you could make different levels of the equipment). Ideally, the better the cloak detector, the more cargo it takes up. Good sound for its use would be like a sonar ping or something.
3. Cloak neutralizing torpedoes - makes players unable to cloak, similar to how CDs make players unable to cruise.
That is actually one of the best ideas I've seen in a while. I always wished there was something that jammed your cargo from scanners. It could function like the cloak in that it requires batteries that way it is not just always on. Of course the problem would be all of the houses would just make it illegal with a 100,000,000 credit fine for being caught with one, so it'd end up being even more risky to smuggle with it then it would with out it.
The only problem I'd have with the cloak detector is again, we're just relying on a sound effect and there are many of us that play with out the sound on for various reasons. I know that's our choice and we suffer for it as far as cloaks go, but I don't think the answer to cloaks is make it so the only way you know there is a cloaked ship is to turn off your music. I don't really have any ideas for another option however.
The cloak disputer is a good idea too, make it obviously take a CD slot (you wouldn't even have to rename it! )
Though in the end, I do think they should be limited to the intelligence factions, as I'm not sure where the governments, once discovering the technology to claok stuff, would just hand it out to every body in the game. Limit the IDs that can use cloaks to the Nomads, Order, Navies, and LSF/BDM style factions, and I feel most of the issues will go away.
Smuggling is already a worse way to make money than mining/hauling ores, and is especially risky for tagged ships (playerlist). Add in anonymous reports, and why would anyone ever want to do it except for the RP aspect? And it's not like there are many hardcore Rpers left any more.
As for cloak countermeasures available via PoBs...that would just encourage 1-use RP-lite PoBs set up for the sole purpose of making your cloak counter for your smuggler. Not everyone has access to one of the "big" PoB factions...and people would just gravitate back to mining, as it's much less hassle (30m for a hedge, then make 20-30m per run. No bother of contacting people and asking for clearance and then trying to get them to make you the item and then buying it, all of which is going to be a money sink. Or you could just make 10 ore runs, buy your cap and go)
Basically, we should be trying to make smuggling (and legitimate trading for that matter) an inviting alternative to mining, so there are multiple ways to get rich, thus promoting variety and interest of RP characters, rather than IMG miner number 948, who spends all day on the same route...
I'm not sure where exactly to stand on this issue, as I'm heavily involved in both a lawful faction and a quasilawful faction. So if this post sounds like I'm thinking aloud, that's probably what's going on ...
From the lawful inRP standpoint, it's a useful tool to use for occasionally special circumstances or maybe where a my ship would be in an inordinate amount of danger (such as hostile PoBs near jump holes). There isn't actually that much precedent for using cloaks like this, though
From the lawful ooRP standpoint, you don't know whether or not the smuggler will bother to roleplay. If I approach him, he might just keep on flying to the sell point, just out of my scanner range - but flying within (for example) the sensor range of Battleship Yukon. That's kind of abusing game mechanics, because NPC stations don't actually scan for cargo, even if they would inRP. Or maybe I've almost got him in my scanner range, but then he dumps his cargo and frags it, which is a valid tactic, unless again he's nearby a lawful solar.
From the quasilawful inRP standpoint, I'm avoiding lawful installations if I'm smuggling (a hobby which, as a quasilawful and not an unlawful, I should keep in moderation) and only using trade lanes if necessary. If there's a cop, maybe I can bribe him. I might try to get rid of the cargo, or if I'm caught, I'll play it cool and look for the easy way out that provides good RP for both of us and/or doesn't harm the faction I'm in. Now if he caught me by using a cloak? Yikes, well, still, it's an RP server so my first focus is to resolve it properly in-game. If he used it unfairly, I'll bring it up in his faction feedback thread, which brings me to my next point -
From the quasilawful ooRP standpoint, I understand the delicacy of my faction's position, and try to fulfill responsibilities of its lore before reaping its benefits. A faction which does nothing good for a government can't just demand neutrality and respect from it, after all. But back to cloaks, yeah I'd be a bit miffed if I flew from Burgundy to Languedoc (using jump holes and again, avoiding military/police stations) to find out that some GRP guy had been silently cloaked behind me. I'd speak with the player or the faction leader to try to figure something out that works best for all, without just talking to them as a way to avoid the consequences of my actions.
So perhaps require cloaked ships, who are using their stealth for espionage purposes, at least "declare" their presence by communicating inRP over /s system chat. Just talk in character, do something - be creative with it. And if the smuggler flies right by lawful bases without a single worry, then be more lenient towards the cloaked guy.
What's key here is that people should be sensitive to what might harm another faction's activity, however that doesn't give "get out of jail free" cards to quasilawful smugglers who are abusing their status. I'll also quickly restate the point that quasilawfuls should do much more than smuggling, and find actually good (not half-arsed) ways to help their government, which will grant them leeway in case they get caught. Quasilawful factions have a lot of rewards, and a lot of responsibility to go with it. They should roleplay working on "both sides of the coin", to quote someone from UC
All player groups, especially official factions, should be able to be held responsible for their inRP actions. Not the whole in-game faction, mind you, just the specific group (so if [|] did something bad, [HA] wouldn't have to suffer much, if at all). Protection should come from actions the group has done to benefit their house/sponsor, not from magical neutrality or lore. Actions speak louder than words, or something like that.
Yeah, I'm really rambling here, aren't I? One more point to make, I think. Lawful and unlawful (or, well, all) factions should show a degree of restraint when pursuing another for something they wouldn't like in-game by using a cloaking device, but they shouldn't be barred from using what they find.
Maybe put this up next to not ganking in fights, not using capital ships to feed fighters their bots, etc. as a thing that, in some but not all circumstances, is not a cool move
Cue end of a fifty minute rant. If this was confusing to you, I apologize - I just spilled my thoughts out and tried to organize it. With luck my insight is helpful to you all more than it was daunting to read as a large post
(02-13-2015, 04:58 PM)Derkylos Wrote: As for cloak countermeasures available via PoBs...that would just encourage 1-use RP-lite PoBs set up for the sole purpose of making your cloak counter for your smuggler. Not everyone has access to one of the "big" PoB factions...and people would just gravitate back to mining, as it's much less hassle (30m for a hedge, then make 20-30m per run. No bother of contacting people and asking for clearance and then trying to get them to make you the item and then buying it, all of which is going to be a money sink. Or you could just make 10 ore runs, buy your cap and go)
I mean.
People already do/did this with cloaks and jump drives, and it hasn't been such a big deal. It doesn't really change much for people if there are more options.
I do think that it's better to provide agency and power to counter cloaks than it is to impose arbitrary limits on what cloakers can and can't do. Arbitrary limits aren't fun and just restrict both RP and gameplay. The capacity to act against others makes interactions way more interesting.