Say we had space travel and whatnot. Sure, we have military grade weapons and such, plus pirates and terrorists, and obviously the Luxury Liner producers want the best they can afford for their passangers safety. But no matter how much those corporations want the guns, would the military sell them? No, they would not.
So, running on that, does it make sense to give Luxury Liners military grade weapons? Again, the answer is no.
Luxury Liners have decent turrents already. Slap on the best Transport turrets and give them a go. I promise that you'll be able to take on just about anything the NPCs can throw at you. And if you're getting attacked by PCs, then go call for help! Hire an escort when traveling through space with known pirate activity! It's not that hard!
Prison liners, on the other hand, are run by the Police. Thus, at least a small number of Military grade weapons would be understandable. They have less cargo to haul, and are only availible to the police, but they pack a bit bigger punch for dealing with attempted prison breaks.
Why are we still discussing this? Did I not post an answer that offered a middle ground to everyone?
This is the real true story of rock and roll; it was not about anything more then, how to live your life, as a gangster, in sartorial splendor, and turning the world into a place where normality would never return again...- Malcolm McLaren
And if you need escort there are at least 8 different Mercenary factions available. And there are Lawfuls that will escort you. SF, SA, KNF, RM. And it is most likely that you will get a LG Train anyways in which case you will need an escort for safety...
And make the liner more expensive at anything...at least make so that in order to get a liner you need a LG train...so that the liner is an RP ship not a trading vessel...I am tired of pirating impregniable ships...
' Wrote:Say we had space travel and whatnot. Sure, we have military grade weapons and such, plus pirates and terrorists, and obviously the Luxury Liner producers want the best they can afford for their passangers safety. But no matter how much those corporations want the guns, would the military sell them? No, they would not.
Would the military sell them to pirates? No, but wait, pirates make there own!
Everyone from the order to the pirates to the military DOES sell weapons, including their best weapons, to anyone friendly to them.
So why wouldn't they sell them to Spa and Cruise as well? Why wouldn't Spa and Cruise make their own? Wait, they do!
' Wrote:Luxury Liners have decent turrents already.
They have liner turrets, which are cap ship turrets. Liner's should come with liner turrets, and liners should be able to replace those with cap ship turrets.
Again, there is no reason a liner should be a flying eggshell, and if you make them that way no one will fly them, they will fly a large train for $ and another cap ship for RP and you might as well take them out of the mod.
As it is now you impose no ship restrictions by ID or role, so someone who wants to needs to either RP a spa and cruise type with a different cap ship, and they will need a different ID as well to allow flying a cap ship, or they will just find another role to play. That's the result of making the liner a weak transport.
' Wrote:I agree with Wobbly. Liners should be toned down, but not to the extent that other people are talking.
I don't think they should be toned down, I think they should be made more cap ship like and less gunboat like. They are as large as a BS, capable of acting as a stand alone station like a battleship can, and they should reflect that.
So what you want is Liners able to fend off capital class ships? Sorry bud, but nowhere in the history of the world have civilian vessels or vehicals been superior to military equipment. Why should the future be different?
From what you're saying, Wobbly, all you want out of this is a cheep and over-muscled battleship. Liners arn't that. Liners are exactly what the name says; Liners. Sure, they carry important cargo but that's dosn't justify giving them battleship class weapons.
Again, these are CIVILIAN SHIPS, not pirate or military, CIVILIAN. Civillians don't get automatic weapons, rocket launchers, moarters, or even true sniper rifles do they? Nope. All of that is for the military. Can civilians get mounted machine guns, battleship turrets, or cruise missiles? Nope.
And yes, Spa and Cruise make their own weapons. They're called "Transport Turrets!" "OMFG! NO WAI!", right? Well listen up, bub, 'cause they do in fact have their own weapons. Get the class 7's, and watch the NPC pirates dissolve under your fire. Just go out and try it. Or, alternatly, buy some Adv.Debilitator turrets or Chain Gun Purple Goddess turrets and rip appart those pirates with streams of energy.
Give them both Gunboat shields, fairly decent armor, and have most of the turret slots be transport turret slots. For the lux liner, give it a pair or two of gunboat slots, and let the prison liner get 5 or 6 plus a little boost in armor. Of course, the cargo hold isn't as big, but thats the price you pay for better weapons.
Face it Wobbly, what Luxury Liner captain is going to stick around and fight? They might disturb the passangers, they would never fly on that line again, and then that business would loose money. More often then not, a Lux Liner captain will kill a few pirates and hit the cruise button all the while screaming for backup. NOT return fire untill all the pirates are gone. That's just f-ing stupid on the captains part.
This is the real true story of rock and roll; it was not about anything more then, how to live your life, as a gangster, in sartorial splendor, and turning the world into a place where normality would never return again...- Malcolm McLaren
Yes Kane you are wise beyond your years...but BTW we civilians can get sniper grade weapons for the eternal record.
However your point is that which I have attempted to get across since I first discovered the Liner...it is a CIVILIAN NON MILITARY vehicle and as such should have non military weapons...
But I have an idea no one has yet to consider, make a brand of GB level weapons spefically made for the Liner in question...make it so that they are either class 7 but guzzle too much energy for anything else or make them GB weapons not worth it to be on GBs but then that leaves us with abusers so I believe that is a no go.
Igiss just put your foot down and say something here, you are the mod designer...throw us all a bone here...even though Kane is pretty much 100% right...
Wow, this has escalded into many things since i last checked it.
First of all, Liners do NOT need to be made into battleships. Kane has it right, a VIP would NOT travel on a liner again if it wasflying around and killing pirates.
Prison liners, all they do isd sitting in one place and hold their prisoners. They really don't need engines, save for transporting guys from NewGate to Sugarland.
Here Is what I came up with. Class 7 turrets that use up too much energy to be used on fighters. EXCEPT, have them fire like a chaingun. This wiuld be for shooting down fighters. The big slow guns are best saved for capital ships and pirates wont usually waste a cap ship on a liner. So having fast, anti fighter weapons would seam logical.
' Wrote:So what you want is Liners able to fend off capital class ships?
I want what spa and cruise would want and build, a liner that can can stand up to a pirate attack, even if the pirates use their gunboats, and can survive a cap ship attack.
' Wrote:Sorry bud, but nowhere in the history of the world have civilian vessels or vehicals been superior to military equipment.
Absolutely wrong on your part. In fact when piracy was the norm civilian ships often were the best ships on the water.
' Wrote:From what you're saying, Wobbly, all you want out of this is a cheep and over-muscled battleship.
Again absolutely wrong on your part. The ship should cost in comparison to it's abilities, I never said they should be cheap so stop putting words in my mouth. And if kept true to what the designers of freelancer put in the game when they put liners in, they won't be over-muscled, just properly muscled.
' Wrote:Liners arn't that. Liners are exactly what the name says; Liners. Sure, they carry important cargo but that's dosn't justify giving them battleship class weapons.
The fact that they are as large as battleships and could support such weapons, as the original designers of freelancer made them does justify that very thing.
' Wrote:Again, these are CIVILIAN SHIPS, not pirate or military, CIVILIAN. Civillians don't get automatic weapons, rocket launchers, moarters, or even true sniper rifles do they? Nope
Actually, yes they do. I've been to a couple civilian machine gun shoots myself.
' Wrote:And yes, Spa and Cruise make their own weapons. They're called "Transport Turrets!" "OMFG!
AND liner turrets, OMFG! which are cap ship turrets. Did you already forget the liner in vanilla freelancer? How convenient your memory holes seem to be!
' Wrote:Face it Wobbly, what Luxury Liner captain is going to stick around and fight?
The one who has too because he was jumped by pirates in a gunboat or cap ship.
And again what you have done is completely ignore the points I made.
A. Liners are as big as battleships, with capital ship turrets in vanilla freelancer. They can survive in hostile space acting as stations. The designers of the game intended them to be a capital ship.
B. Liners need to be offensively armed to survive, spa and cruise isn't going to spend millions on ships that fall like flies.
C. Civilian equipment in freelancer ALREADY IS AS GOOD AS MILITARY, EVEN IN THE MOD.
I can see this degrading into a flame fest pretty soon, so whoever posts next, read it again twice before you hit the post button, and get any subtle b1tchy stuff out of it please. Thanks:cool:
OK, let's turn this another way, a compromise... maybe.
Suppose we make the Lux Liner a cruiser (say it's supposed to be that). In that case, it should have about these changes:
reduced maneuverability to what it's supposed to be - a big luxury cruiser, bare in mind, it should be the slowest cruiser around (it is the biggest, should be about maneuverability of a Li Dread, maybe just a little faster than that)
reduce cargo space - by a lot, make it 600 - 800 units (800 is the Battleship cargo capacity, say we go for that as it is meant to transport passengers), makes sense, a lot goes on the lot of armor and weapon systems
rebalance the power generator to the power usage and decide on the weapons class for it
it definitely shouldn't be as powerful as a Battleship, note the lot of Bounty Hunters and Spa and Cruise patrols around the Hawaii/Shetland. Also note how the pirates don't get to be near those liners because of the BHG/Spa & Cruise/allies patrols.
I suggest the price about 70mil (Luxury Liner should mean LUXURY LINER, not CARGO TRAIN)
It's the things that Wobbly seems to selectively 'overlook' too. So what now? I'm OK with the Liner being a cruiser, but as I said, not an uber trader, make it as maneuverable as a Li Dread/Osiris, give it 600-800 cargo, even cruiser weapons and cut down it's power.
True, pirates should be banding together and so should the lawfuls do but it's definitely wrong and should be impossible for a lone Liner to escape five decent pilots in fighters which it is now able to do.
If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God? - from 'Nightfall' by I. Asimov The Outcasts consider Siniestre Nube a sacred place for several reasons. Early explorers discovered a jumphole within the depths of the cloud that leads to a strange world of ringed stars and strange craft. All ships in the burrial ground are placed facing that hole to honor the Alien Spirits. - An Outcast rumor
In my opinion its fixed now. The new beta gave it a limited number of GB turrets, removed the cruiser for GB shield. Its maneuverability is roughly that of a Liberty Cruiser, but the defensive and offensive capabilities are a bit less than that of a gunboat. With the cruiser-size. Seems pretty well balanced at that spot. A proper military gunboat can beat it. As can any cruiser or battleship. Even a group of fighters can now. (Unless its the Scythes, whos 3 Eagles couldn't hurt me:P)