Yet again about the ships

[tansytansey]

Upon reading some recent stuff related to ships mainly and their purpose.

What crossed my mind numerous times is complete rework of the ships to reflect their purpose. Now ill be hijacking without quoting but basically

The fatal flaw in this ideal begins here.

You're suggesting we rebalance ships from their current arcade balance to a simulation type balance.

However, we can rebalance the ships all we want, this is still going to be an arcade game. One that was never designed to have pilotable capital ships.

You're too ambitious, you might as well just start writing your own game engine.

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|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes "Nighthawk" Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[CzeReptile]

As per above. That diversification is also very interesting.

To JInx - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-4_Ganef its still in use and working, so no WWII thing, just Russian- biggest the best.


@Ashes - I am aware of that, so why not kill capital ships? Also, why implement roleplay even if it is a shooter game? Truly, it is doable eventually but probably too bad for people who couldnt then use allrounder to all combat situations, isnt that true?;)

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[Pancakes]

one of the main problems of bombers vs. caps is that:

- caps go from a tiny bottlenose up to a juggernaut - and the bomberclass has the ambition to be equally awesome vs. all of them.

- capships enjoy the greatest range of sizes and strengths of all ships - and it is only the rough classification as "capital" (war)-ships that puts them all under one banner.
we differentiate fighters a lot more even if their differences are a lot smaller. - a light fighter to a VHF does not vary as much in size as a bunboat to a battleship. - even the agility and speed of a LF isn t so much different as the agility and speed of a gunboat to a battleship.

- so lets think of it ... we want one ship that is equally good vs. ALL fightertypes... the tiny and over-agile voidrunner up to the spatial SHF. - and with equally good i mean "this ship is meant to take them out" ( just as so many proclaim that the bomber is meant to take out capital warships )

- do we have such a ship?

no ship in disco can take on all fighters - except other fighters. - sure... a battleship can reduce any fighter to scrap metal in seconds.... provided the fighter does not move and is well in range. but not even the gunboat can kill a fighter if the fighter decides NOT to be killed.

it is a little different with capital warships. - since they are slower, they cannot run away as easy as a fighter can run from a capital warship. - its chance of survival if it fails to hit the enemy is to dock.
so what was mentioned is kind of right...
- we have three kinds of bombers. - why on earth do we want them to be equally good vs. all capital warships
- light bombers might be good vs. gunboats - but bad vs. battleships ( yes, they are not as good as heavy bombers right now, but hardly bad )

- heavy bombers should be good vs. cruisers, but lacking vs. gunboats and lower on power vs. battleships

- superheavy bombers should be good vs. battleships, but worse vs. cruisers and bad vs. gunboats.
how could you achive that? - a light bomber would have little power and would be what we call "fighterbomber" - roughly fightersized, slightly heavier armour for slightly less agility and one main cannon that takes ages to recharge. ( no SNAC, but why not a dual slot for razors )

heavy bombers would be significantly larger in size, a lot less agile - but pack a lot more power ( kind of like the fafnir now ) ... equipped with something like the SNAC with a short range (< 600 [which extends to more due to the bombers momentum] )

superheavy bombers would be roughly GB size - also only about as agile - and a lot LESS armoured ( with only light shields ) - but they would pack a hell of a punishment.... with a rather slow but semi guided projectile ( working nova type )

at the same time - decrease gunboat armour significantly ( their main defense being their shield ) - increase cruiser armour significantly and also increase battleship armour by a lot
the above only describes an IDEA - but also the problem.
in terms of "scissor, paper, stone" the bomber is THE allround ship still - not as good as 4.84 for sure - and certainly not as powerful as the dual nova cannon bombers of 4.83...

a light bomber should dodge like they do now - thats just fair... but a bomber designed to fight the heaviest of battleships should not be the so called "fighter-bomber"-type anymore.
edit:

and cause its fasionable to compare real life - just a fun thing... :

i found THAT with google - ppl say that its used to shoot down "big" air things...

http://data3.primeportal.net/artillery/voj...ef_07_of_25.jpg
and below i found that on google which is meant to shoot down "small" air things

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger_03.jpg
no idea if thats really true - but if it is... you see the differences. - there must be a reason why one is small enough to be fired from the shoulder ( light bomber if you want it so ) ... and the other looks like its 2 moonrockets on wheels ( but yes - maybe the 2 big missiles are just from ww2 and the rocketlauncher is modern - who knows )

what i want to show is.... big weapons to deal with big things ( even nowadays ) - small weapons to deal with small things. ... and yes... a single satchel charge can probably take out an entire battleship - but we do not play "splinter cell" where one man infiltrates the ship...

Did you just compared a stinger to a ballistic artilery vehicel?

Anyhow, Stinger is not as quite as you said, but for slower aircrafts, mainly helicopters and cargo airplanes, like the A400M , while http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPYDER this for example is much heavier and is anti jet airplanes.
Anti air missiles are mostly going by the speed of the target rather the it's size i.e a stinger is useless against raptor (F-22) as the Raptor can simply out speed it. But the raptor is much smaller then the Airbus A400M while being much faster.
Anyway, same principal should be applied to discovery, faster projectiles should be used by light bombers to take down faster capital ships, but they should do less damage, and heavier ones, that are slower but doing more damage should be used by the super heavy bombers.

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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

[CzeReptile]

Still, the SNAC is bit tad too more powerful damage / energy weapon, compared to anything else.

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[tansytansey]

@Ashes - I am aware of that, so why not kill capital ships? Also, why implement roleplay even if it is a shooter game? Truly, it is doable eventually but probably too bad for people who couldnt then use allrounder to all combat situations, isnt that true?;)

Simulation requires numbers.

Arcade requires skill.

We have an abundance of the latter and a shortage of the former.

Furthermore, resources are infinite in this arcade game. If you want sim, then you have to do it proper, no half-ass job. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

That pretty much means a total overhaul of the entire game.

Which is why I said you might as well just write your own :/


This is not Eve, this is not Flotilla, this is not a space simulation.

This is Freelancer.

And I am here to play Freelancer for the game that it is. Discovery has always been an expansion of the game, it has always been about maintaining the core feel of the original game while expanding it to it's potential.

And I'm telling you now, if anything like these suggested ideas were to be implimented, I, along with all the other people who are here to play Freelancer, would leave this server and find another.

We are here for this game. We are here for Freelancer. This is Freelancer.

Deal with it.

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|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes &quot;Nighthawk&quot; Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[Aoyagi]

And I'm telling you now, if anything like these suggested ideas were to be implimented, I, along with all the other people who are here to play Freelancer, would leave this server and find another.

We are here for this game. We are here for Freelancer. This is Freelancer.

Deal with it.

So you are saying, that if Jinx's bombers were from the very beginning of Discovery (or bomber class in discovery), you wouldn't come here in the first place? That you came here for nice shiny ships instead of RP?

- light bombers might be good vs. gunboats - but bad vs. battleships ( yes, they are not as good as heavy bombers right now, but hardly bad )

"fighterbomber" - roughly fightersized, slightly heavier armour for slightly less agility and one main cannon that takes ages to recharge. ( no SNAC, but why not a dual slot for razors )

a light bomber should dodge like they do now - thats just fair... but a bomber designed to fight the heaviest of battleships should not be the so called "fighter-bomber"-type anymore.

Actually, dual razor would be nice for said light bombers, but it would be used against fighters again and would be the new all-around. Not that I would mind that. But I do like the idea overall.

[CzeReptile]

We are here for this game. We are here for Freelancer. This is Freelancer.

Deal with it.

So lose the capital ships and its all done for. really, they are here cause people wanted them probably. They cause most of all problems around, people yell at them most of the time. I am fine with it, what strikes me is that instead of trying to at least somehow make it balanced towards the Freelancer game, it is just balanced towards two craft types in game.

Just another way of saying - do not take away my pvp toy I use to smash noobs in caps with.

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[tansytansey]

So lose the capital ships and its all done for. really, they are here cause people wanted them probably. They cause most of all problems around, people yell at them most of the time. I am fine with it, what strikes me is that instead of trying to at least somehow make it balanced towards the Freelancer game, it is just balanced towards two craft types in game.

Just another way of saying - do not take away my pvp toy I use to smash noobs in caps with.

I enjoy flying Capital Ships just as much as anyone. I fly a Scylla, hell of a beast, I can kill LSCs while barely taking a scratch, blow up LABCs and even fight off Dreads and Carriers. I can kill Gunboats too, but they're much trickier and in groups they're too much to handle on my own. Same with bombers.

But then, that's the point of balance. I understand this. This is why I don't demand change because someone killed me (actually my Scylla has never died. I only use it in situations where flying this ship gives me the advantage), this is why I don't claim that one ship class is grossly overpowered or has more advantages than another.

On this server, no one person is more valuable in combat than another. There is no ship that cannot be beaten, there is no combination of ships that cannot be out matched, there is no end-all-be-all. There is variety. There is the ability to fly whatever the hell you want to, and the ability to have fun. Everyone can win, and everyone can lose, it depends more on skill and numbers than the type of ship you fly.

Why is this so hard to understand? Why should one person who was able to powertrade for a few hours longer be deserving of a ship that makes them better than other people?

Freelancer is a game of Rock Paper Scissors. Everyone can pick from either category at their own will, some people like to mix things up and use a strategy to out play their opponents. Others simply think good ol' rock wins every time. This creates variety, a wide distribution of ships across the server, because it is human nature to want to win. Giving us the ability to win with whatever we want to fly gives us the opportunity to fly whatever we want to fly, rather than giving up the things we enjoy in order to take a competetive edge.

The systems people like you propose take away all of this. They turn the game of rock paper scissors into a contest, into rock, paper, scissors and nuclear warhead, where only the person who power traded the longest and brought the biggest baddest ship can possibly win in any enviroment which does not include hugely overwhelming numbers. (which they'll complain about as ganking of course.)

This does two things. It forces us players to compete by using ships that can match our opponents, making every other ship redundant, because not everyone has a group of 5 buddies around all the time to bring down one ship. And even then, if each of those 5 buddies was in the big bad Battleship, it would be far more efficent any way.
This removes variety. It also creates more complaints. Players given that much power will force limits, such as the proposed capital ship registration. But really all that does is limit our variety even more.

Why don't you people get this. Why is it so difficult to understand?

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Image turned into a URL because it made your sig too tall. -Zuke
|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes &quot;Nighthawk&quot; Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[CzeReptile]

Why is this so hard to understand? Why should one person who was able to powertrade for a few hours longer be deserving of a ship that makes them better than other people?

Why is there cap 8 armor upgrade then? because such things promote silent running PT´s. Also, it is about skill.
And no matter how much you claim the no end be all stuff, a bunch of highly skilled PVPers with smalls and one gunboat can vaporize entire fleet of LNS who are beginners. Bunch of flies, be them fighters, taking on a mighty battleship that is supposed to be weapon of mass destruction.

You do miss the point. Re-read it entirely please, what I ask about is to have ships fulfill their roles more accurately for sake of roleplay.

Why all like you get here with just PVP in their mind? I do not get that part really. I presume it is better for someone to be able to out-do anybody with their happy tree friends bunch, well I would certainly not mind a game where tactics would matter, instead of better equipment and skill. teamwork promotes roleplay much more, then elitist approach.

beat me really.

This does two things. It forces us players to compete by using ships that can match our opponents, making every other ship redundant, because not everyone has a group of 5 buddies around all the time to bring down one ship. And even then, if each of those 5 buddies was in the big bad Battleship, it would be far more efficent any way.

So do not take on the ship? Ego hurt or what? Does that mean that simply because I cannot take on battleship with three fighters now, ill go whiny-mode? That it does and frankly, it is fine for me.

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[Kontrazec (Somni)]

I completely support the post above, and would like to add, that in my honest opinion, every battleship should be SRP, or need HEAVY approval. Either that or just remove battleships, cause honestly, to see them every damn day everywhere is just a little bit too much, those things cost buttloads. If they were to be uber buffed to the machines of destruction they're supposed to be, they they would be decently playable. But not a chance that should happen without heavy restriction on battleships. This is a ROLEPLAY server, not a PVP server, and if someone would prove via a hellishly long RP story or certain promotions (or both) they were responsible and mature enough to fly a battleship, you'd see one hell of a lot more RP. Cause currently, there's just too many battleship lolwuts roaming around without a single sentence written of roleplay.

It makes me sad to see people disregarding the point of a RP server and STILL just hopping on, silently trading to 1.6 billion, picking up their fabled CAU8 Osiris and shooting all that's red going only ":)" when asked to explain.

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Sucks to be a weight on the wrong side of the brilliance-insanity scale.