Quote:Yet here people who handles out tech got ninjad. It's like laws which are applied backwards. That's plain nonsense.
THIS.
Even in RL retroactive laws are not allowed in almost any country, afaik. At least noone is implementing em in developed countries. (i'm not sure if it's the right term in english).
EDIT: Nobody saw that coming, I guess. And IMO, the current system is too restrictive. What's the point for a faction to give anything from it's tech to a third party, when there's absolutely no guarantee it won't be used against them? (if you don't know him personally, ooRP)
Again, inRL you can at least use... dunno how it's in english, well, sort of an addition to controlling software that will allow to disrupt that thing (say, export versions of Patriot AA systems), or at least it's physically possible to destroy that hardware.
I am against this a lot. Someone made an RP choice. This someone had a lot of RP power. The same people made another RP choice. These two choices had a big consequence. How is that ever bad RP?
Technology is not as hard as it seems. If you are an engineer and you get your hands on a radiator, I really think if you put your mind to it, you could fix a different kind of radiator. Low tech example: I bought an LSW replica. It was missing the bolt for the bipod. I didn't have to fly to Britain to buy a bolt; I wrapped a nail in tape and shoved it where other bipods put bolts. The bipod works now. If you know how one Pulse Gun works, you probably can figure out another Pulse Gun if people pay you to figure it out.
No one seems to understand consequences. You meet a mercenary. You give him guns. You stop paying him. He gets hungry. He notices someone wants you dead for paying for wanting him dead. Mercenary shoots you because you don't pay him anymore. Well that makes sense. I've never heard of anyone complaining about how a bear mauling him when he stole the bear's salmon was poor sport on the bear's fault. It's a logical consequence. I think the lesson that should be learned from the Reaver example is to pay your Mercenaries generously so they will never turn their backs on you. The Reavers basically built their entire contract around that bounty board in the past. If it was up consistently to this day, I doubt this debate would have ever come up.
I never interpreted the old rules like everyone else seems to have done. You give out technology? Well don't complain when the technology gets turned at you. That's what I read. But then again, I really don't think there is a big difference between getting shot at my Drakes or Krakens, Magma Hammers or Firekisses, Skyblasts or Suncannons, or Splitters or Salamancas. I'm getting shot at either way and I have to figure out what to do about it. I got into that situation somehow in the game, I have to get out of it somehow in the game.
I would definitely be in favor of a rule change which reads "You cannot take back technology given to other players." No one is special that way. Will it make factions less likely to give out their stuff? If they're paranoid, sure. But really: what is the difference between a Protector and a Salamanca? A Suncannon and a Skyblast? A Splitter and a Vampire? A Sunrail and a Kraken? A Cid and a Deb? Give both of those pairs to me and I'll show you, the difference is really negligible (I suck either way). The only people who restrict what they do are those who are deathly afraid of the shortcomings of their own RP. When it comes down to it, you're still getting shot by something comparable.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
' Wrote:I would definitely be in favor of a rule change which reads "You cannot take back technology given to other players." No one is special that way. Will it make factions less likely to give out their stuff? If they're paranoid, sure. But really: what is the difference between a Protector and a Salamanca? A Suncannon and a Skyblast? A Splitter and a Vampire? A Sunrail and a Kraken? A Cid and a Deb? Give both of those pairs to me and I'll show you, the difference is really negligible (I suck either way). The only people who restrict what they do are those who are deathly afraid of the shortcomings of their own RP. When it comes down to it, you're still getting shot by something comparable.
Uh, the rules currently *are* that "you cannot take back technology." Your other examples may not be very different, but Cids are vastly more powerful than Debs.
Currently there can be regulations which do not allow technology to be used in certain ways. While sometimes this allows for neat things (like Zelot once allowed for a Titan to be flown by a Freelancer, but only if both wings are taken off), but most of the time it ends up being the lame "cannot shoot us, else they self destruct!" So, no conditions regarding usage is my plea.
EDIT: Oh, yeah, Del Cids vs Debs? I don't really think there is a big difference. I'm equally ineffective with both and Kalliste is equally effective with both. Someone is shooting at you. You did something to have it be that person in that situation. Oh well. It's what the game is all about.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
This is bullcrap. Having unlimited numbers of technology and using it to backstab faction that has blueprints for that technology is simply ooRP. You can't repair guns such as Tizonas without Corsair help, etc. But who cares about negative roleplay consequences that affect his/her own faction, yes?
When rules regarding safety of loans were changed they still applied to old ones, before moment of announcement.
Tech revoking rules changed and affected even old permissions.
Inconsistency in enforcing the rules. Not the first time.
Of course you can't repair a Tizzie without a Corsair who knows about them. Funny thing is, I'd bet there is a Corsair out there who is willing to do the work for the Reavers for the right amount of cash. I mean, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that a Corsair leaves the Empire for another walk of life now is it?
The Elders made a decision and then inaction caused the Reavers to turn on them. Being shot with your own weapons are the consequences of said actions/inaction. You'll notice the Reavers aren't docking with Corsair bases, that is a consequence of their action of turning on the Corsairs and shooting them.
As for the free use? The tech permission said free usage and I'm sure they were stocked up before the Reavers turned on the Corsairs. I think I have one fighter with Corsair kit, my two recent builds use other technologies. If you don't want unlimited use, limit their use in the permission. Fairly simple.
If you don't want to get shot by your own guns you have two options. Don't give them to a mercenary or ensure you keep the mercenary you did give the guns to on your payroll. Extremely simple.
I don't hear the GMG complaining about getting shot by their own guns ever. You lie to them in role play to get them? Instead of whining on the forums out of role play. They just file a bounty on you if they ever find out you broke the agreement you made with them.
' Wrote:This is bullcrap. Having unlimited numbers of technology and using it to backstab faction that has blueprints for that technology is simply ooRP. You can't repair guns such as Tizonas without Corsair help, etc. But who cares about negative roleplay consequences that affect his/her own faction, yes?
When rules regarding safety of loans were changed they still applied to old ones, before moment of announcement.
Tech revoking rules changed and affected even old permissions.
Inconsistency in enforcing the rules. Not the first time.
Let me ask you a question: a gun is a compilation of parts, right? Parts which are similar to the type of gun you're looking at, right? Just like, say, a toaster or a stove or a computer is a compilation of parts, right? So, if you have a basic concept of how a toaster, stove, or computer works, you can probably figure out another toaster, stove, or computer, right? I mean, I have a custom built computer (I built it), but I am sure that if I were to be presented with an Apple or HP computer, I will know how the Apple or HP computer functions because I understand how the assembly works. Likewise, I had a handyman (not particularly skilled technician) over my house the other day. He had never seen my stove before (I asked him). he still figured out where the burner was disconnected and why it was not lighting and fixed it.
Technology is not hard. If you understand how a specific assembly works, you will be able to understand how all of them work to an extent. What the gap in knowledge would do to the gun cannot be put into game terms, however keeping a piece of technology functioning is not really as hard as people make it seem. If I know how to repair a Deb, and someone gives me something similar and so many credits, I will fix it. It's just a matter of time.
Now, please explain how a consequence is OoRP? Again, I hear no one complaining when a bear mauls you over its salmon. It should be likewise for a Mercenary. If you give a guy a gun, you should take steps to make sure that gun is never pointed at you. I don't see how removing that half of the RP is good RP. There should be pros and cons to every choice. Currently, there is no con to giving out technology to certain Mercenaries. It's such a brainless action it may as well not be done.
Look at Rheinland's [FL]Thexter. He has all sorts of benefits in Rheinland. Why? Because Rheinland treats him generously enough that he will never leave. He can basically do what he wants there. Is this the way you should treat your Mercenaries? I would say that if you don't want to risk of them leaving, yes, but where is the fun in that? Treat them the way you want, but consider the consequences of your actions. Sometimes one might just go and not give you your guns back.
And to be honest, you don't know anything about the inconsistency of rules. It isn't the first time, no, but this isn't even an instance. These days, everything is set in stone. There is a guildeline clear as Harrison State Park's section of Lake Huron. Before, the rules were muddles and unclear. No tech deal was a definite okay. There were no set distances for the rules. The only ones which really made clear were "No cursing, you die don't come back for four hours." This little thing is such a small debacle blown completely out of proportion. It doesn't matter what you get shot by; you're still getting shot.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
You are distancing from the main point of thread - sudden rule change.
How many Tizonas inRP you have as Reavers? I bet you'll say huge number. But did Elders gave you unlimited numbers at once or did they mean till you can land on their stations to do that? I'll bet you'll say about first instance or some other excuse.
Sure. When you'll create one of the most advanced weapons inRL from spare parts only imagining concept I might believe you. Otherwise, I can make food out of basic knowledge, but will it taste same as professional cook that has vast experience could make?