The great VHF comparison, a viable approach to balance?

[SeaFalcon]

I started to think that fighter guns and proper shield in a fight affects much more the balance compared to ships themselfs.
About the shield, first time we fought me with the shield that disadvantages his guns and my friend's shield that advantages my guns. He couldn't touch my hull before drying him from 60 nanobots to 0. Then we did shield exchange and fought again. To my surprise, he managed to deal like 40% damage to my ship.
Now the guns: I tried to phew in conn with a lynx that had 2 carabines and 4 musketons. Everyone was owning me hard even if I was trying to slide, over steer, etc. Then, I bought 6 grand culverins and went to conn again. The difference was enormous. And there are many many others examples in which the same ship with different guns will suck so hard.

Really depends on how you fly.

2.00 guns need different flying to get yourself in the right position to shoot, 4.00's also different and 8.33 different too.

this is where the parts comes that the refires in between those like:
3.03, 5.00 and so on become for some people hard to master, while others favor them.


As for the ships...
You cannot judge ships just on pictures and stats.
You'll need to fly them, several people with different styles and tactics,
then match the fight results over several dozen fights.

Only then you have a real clue on what actually is going on with each ship and how you could perhaps adjust it to be either better or worse.

[Ironwatsas]

Since I have most experiance with Kusari Ships below gunboat class I can speak of this.

"They're a pain in the bhuduss™ to hit" Regardless of how they look on paper. Black Dragons tend to be easier then Chims (though, last I've even SEEN one let alone fought one was 4.84, so it might have been changed) to hit and kill.

In my experiance, fighting them in Sabres, Blossoms, Marauders, and Spatials of all things (which, in my experiance, have worked the best. Your results may vary) is more of a headache then a dogfight. Their model size defeats any real countermeasure short of missile spam/caps. I've flown them quite a bit too so I've seen both sides of the puzzle.

Personally, I think that the best solution is thus:

The Wyrm needs more love. With so many KSPs as we've had and they're all in chims or gunboats. Though it suffers from the same LF-uselessness as all LFs share.

The Chimaera may want to be armor and maneuverability nerfed and made an HF. To represent the fact that it's being overtaken by newer designs. Which also means...

NEW KUSARI VHF: Since most of the problems of the current Kusari shipline come from Vanilla and are little fault of Discovery, why not make a bigger, meaner, cooler VHF that is both balanced and sort of breaks up the monotony of all of the Chimaeras.

Look at it this way: Liberty has Guardians AND Executioners.
Bretonia has Templars and Paladins
Rheinland has Wraiths and Mjolnirs
Kusari only has Chims. Atleast that's all I ever see really.

Wyrms are only good for dodging. Renzu ships are rarely ever used. Hayabusa isn't really useful as a military ship. So a bigger, stronger, less ridiculously tiny VHF to replace the Chim might be worthwhile to look at.

[Curios]

Well, yea. Kusari dogfights are razer stupid. I remember we were trying to make a train session back in hogosha days with bdragons. We freaked out fast enough because most kills were made with mines since 600 ms guns on such an agile and small ships are ugly.

Anyway only the Bdragons can do the fighting more or less well in Kusari coz of Kats and Lazers. Before sunfrenzy it was pain in da butt to be KNFer. I can understand why most of them spent time in Leeds fighting BAF back in .85 rather then doing something around Kusari.

So I kinda like IW's suggestion about making some new VHF models for Kusari. Kusari with current models is too OP. No wonders Corsairs don't go to Sigmas for simple reason that Titan against Katana is awful. Who would go into such a fight by own will? No one.

Arbeiter is ugly. I mean it's stats. I'v tryed it out and it's underperforming a big time. No wonders why everyone still flies sabres. Wraith is very very very very good ship, yes. It lacks 1 gun but it recives a huge HUGE advantage for that. I'd really like to have a 5-gunned titan with such stats, lol.

Anyway, balance is done by some folks who usually just balance the ships they actually fly to their enemies instead of balancing all the bunch. But it's my personal theory.

But we just use what we can use, so np. No one bound to use the ships that are shit so we can just abandon the faction and go play somethin' else, np.

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[Yber]

Can you explain this one- XTF uses it a lot and rape me all the time, the ship just moves in some hard to predict way.
[/quote]

Because most of people don't like jousting. If you give some more details, names, etc...

Now the guns: I tried to phew in conn with a lynx that had 2 carabines and 4 musketons. Everyone was owning me hard even if I was trying to slide, over steer, etc. Then, I bought 6 grand culverins and went to conn again. The difference was enormous. And there are many many others examples in which the same ship with different guns will suck so hard.

So it was you xd. A ship doesn't "suck" because you use some guns or others, it's just about how to fly, as Sea pointed above.

Rodnas, avenger being faster than wassupu? LOLOLOLOL revise your numbers. I fly the ship quite a lot and it's between templar and titan.

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inb4 Sirius gets renamed to XTF.

[Rodnas]

Well, i rechecked the numbers Yber, and as long as no one took pains to to edit the second sheet to trick me( as i can't check the shiparch.ini from here) it is how it is- that avenger is fast. Might it be you feel that it is slower because it is at least 150% bigger than the Wasupu and that little Was just "looks" really agile?

I guess that's the conundrum with hard numbers^^ - but feel free to calculate em yourself for the pair if you don't trust in mine( which is your full right to do so!)

On the point of guns being not in the whole spreadsheet: i stayed away from them as they propably are a complete new thread with even more personal opinions propably than on ships!
Here, even more so practice on differnt guns might "spoil" you to other guns, to a point where you could swear it is the best speed and refire combination there is^^
=> other than that...i would vouch for fast projectiles are at least easiest to aim, which would give you more time to learn other freelancery skills like maneuvering, mining or whatnot

here i exlained it a bit more in detail, why i while being a 600 /2.00 user myself think that fast projectiles are better

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Read about: The Benitez Familia and Trueno Benitez

---Not available for any disco stuff these days(and for an extended period of time to come, too ---

[Yber]

Those numbers aren't reliable. Avenger is slower than most of things. It's titanish. Templarish. It's not about being big (it's not), it's just as it is. Or maybe you're right and it's about the feeling you get. Idk.

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inb4 Sirius gets renamed to XTF.

[Rodnas]

Well, the Avenger is not big, but waaaay bigger than the Wasupu, that's what i ment.

The problem is, there is no quick and dirty tryout way as the x(left/right) and y(up/down) speeds are the same, only on the z axis the avenger is faster. Now Z is stupid to measure ingame^^

It basically describes how fast you can get into a banking turn or how fast it is performed, mjolnire named it responsiveness, others call it roll speed/acceleration... pick your poison i guess

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Read about: The Benitez Familia and Trueno Benitez

---Not available for any disco stuff these days(and for an extended period of time to come, too ---

[Sava]

z=rolling. Oh wait you already said that.

Fast rolling doesn't give much of advantage, i believe.

Nasty bit removed. Never say that again.
-Zuke

[Blodo]

The acceleration to top speed on a traight line is only influenced by force, provided by the engines, deducted by the linear drag and then diided by the ships mass.
Now all ships of the VHF class have exactly the same value here so all accelerate axactly the same way on a straigh line.

This is more or less correct, and even if it wasn't the forward acceleration doesn't decide fights so that doesn't need to be included.

When it comes by turning acceleration, things change, but turning acceleration is what i labeled as "reaction" other than that i named it different it is all good, of course i can make a [unit] on top of the table, too.

Well, naming it reaction was I guess a bit misleading, but if that is in essence acceleration then fine. Nonetheless, what was the equation used to calculate it? Torque divided by inertia?

Strafing and strafingacceleration is next. Again, all ships of the VHF class strafe and strafe accelerate identical, if wished i insert the correct number here.
The only excempt is the Sabre/lich as it has a strafe force of 21000 instead of the regular 20000.

Nonetheless it should be included if you want a full picture of how the ships work. Sabre used to have 125 mass at one point, which effectively made it the OP "lagship" that people described it as. It's important, and while strafe force was generally kept static in past versions, there is no reason it can't be edited in the future.

Then again, back to Blodo: your "problem " with my calcs i i was to lazy to slap m/s and rad/s on top or am i just confused?

No, rather the problem was the fact that the numbers seemed rather arbitrary. Perhaps adding exact formula used to calculate each to the sheet would be good. Also I still think that strafe stats should be taken into account because, even if not many ships differ in them, they do have a big impact.

[why_so_serious]

Just wondering. Does the Lich and the sabre have the same stats?

I thought at least the Lich would be a bit faster but bigger (3 Engines instead of 2).

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They see me fightin', they hatin'

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