This may have been discussed before I guess. Ok, in the last few days I have run into several Indies and one official character who tried to enforce trade embargo laws incorrectly. I've even had one LNS guy side with a vessel that was pirating me and destroy me for being a 'Relender' (his word, not mine). I was flying an ALG ID'd Golem in Liberty, carrying toxic waste. I have also had trouble on the Rheinland side of the border with Indies not knowing the Rheinland Embargo laws. This is not a new problem, it has been going on for as long as the Embargos have been in place.
The question is, what can be done to stop these unlawful attacks? Could the addition of a rule that makes it illegal to destroy or attack a vessel using house laws as a reason if you are enforcing that law incorrectly be implemented? I don't know what difference that would make, as these players have not bothered to learn the other rules correctly in the first place. Many of them have no doubt never even visited the forums.
So the next option, make the official factions of the house in question responsible for the actions of the Indies when they incorrectly enforce laws? Unrealistic I guess, and unfair on the Liberty factions as they have the biggest problems due to player numbers and the high amount of those players being new.
The other issue is, the Embargo laws are RP laws, so players are not rule bound to obey them. My problem with it is, they are quite happy to use the laws as a reason to attack when legally (according to Rp) they should not have, yet they really suffer no consequences. Sure, we can go report them in Rp to the official factions. Hell, if you're lucky you might even get a response. After all is said and done though, there is very little that will achieve, especially as the player concerned is usually oblivious of, or indeed indifferent to the RP and it's conclusion of events.
Or, can we ban indie players from enforcing these faction rules at all? Unfair I suppose, it's restricting their freedom in game to RP their chosen faction.
So again we are back to education. House factions have the privilege and trust required to create these rules to enhance their gameplay and their roleplay. However, the rules they implement are often the cause of bad roleplay and ruined gameplay for others. Especially with situations as described above. I believe that official house factions have a duty to ensure that all players who COULD enforce their rules are actually aware of how to do so correctly. Telling people to make an inRP post about it on the forums is not enough. These situations need never arise if people were educated as to the laws in question.
I will not presume to tell official factions how to go about educating others. I will leave that up to the leadership of each faction concerned, as this kind of thing goes with the territory of leading. The fact is, these laws, implemented by official factions for the enhancement of their own experience, can be cause for some very negative experiences for others. As mentioned, it would be unfair for us to hold official factions responsible for the actions of Indies. However, as it is faction law being either abused or incorrectly interpreted, I would suggest that you should at least have a sense of accountability. If not, then I see no reason why you should be allowed to create laws that cause such problems for others.
Its a good and well reasoned post. Its a hard call to make, sometimes I have seen people sanctioned for enforcing house law incorrectly. Its always best to solve these things INRP, but official factions often cant be bothered, partly due to their frustration about their small powers over indies. I've discussed it several times before, most recently; http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=91128
User was banned for: Griefing others
Time left: (Permanent)
Sadly this comes to a problem as it also happened to me not only in Liberty but also in Rheinland and in Kusari.
Regarding the server rules: If someone blows you up because of false house rules it is a PvP violation. In fact you are a lawful trader getting popped by a lawful which is not allowed.
Perhaps it is a good idea to prepare some predefined messages to quote from house laws.
(01-25-2013, 11:13 AM)Daron Wrote: Regarding the server rules: If someone blows you up because of false house rules it is a PvP violation. In fact you are a lawful trader getting popped by a lawful which is not allowed.
Agreed, I could file sanction reports against such players if i so wished, but I don't. At least, not on the first occasion. I usually try to point out the error and suggest they go and re-read the applicable rule/rules they are mistaken about. I guess a few of them actually do. Though usually only after they have destroyed your vessel of course. I'd rather not file a sanction based solely on ignorance, especially when there is so much information that people have to take on board.
(01-25-2013, 11:13 AM)Daron Wrote: Perhaps it is a good idea to prepare some predefined messages to quote from house laws.
I considered this, but I think a lot of the players involved aren't going to Alt tab out of the game to check that you're right unfortunately. They have this "I'm navy, you're not" attitude. Again, the need for such predefined messages could be avoided if they were actually already aware of the correct rules. So it's swings and roundabouts I guess
Then again, if i am not prepared to practice what i preach, I have no right to complain, so I shall at least give this a go
(01-25-2013, 12:36 PM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: The laws themselves are fine. The writers have no ill intention. What you have to change is the attitude of the players enforcing them incorrectly.
I believe this is what I have been saying. Short of introducing new laws to cover the laws that are already there, the only answer is to make players more aware of the rules they are meant to enforce
(01-25-2013, 12:36 PM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: The laws themselves are fine. The writers have no ill intention. What you have to change is the attitude of the players enforcing them incorrectly.
I believe this is what I have been saying. Short of introducing new laws to cover the laws that are already there, the only answer is to make players more aware of the rules they are meant to enforce
Awareness is not the same as attitude. Some may know of the correct laws, but do not care to adhere to them. Others may not care to learn (either unwilling or unable), even after being directed towards them. "You can take a horse to water..."
NB: For laws that are in-line with canonical roleplay, Official Faction leaders are able to order indies to enforce those laws under rule 4.7.
Quote:The question is, what can be done to stop these unlawful attacks?
The first thing that comes to mind is:
stay out of their face with a rheinland ship and IFF. If you know that they will just attack you because you're a rheinlander, or because you are a nomad, or because you are a hogosha, or because you're a rogue, or a pirate, stay away from them. I mean... they're not TOTALLY illogical in what they're doing. It just happens to be so that the primaries decided that other rheinland ships should be shot at but not ALG, for some reason.
Second thing would be:
Get the primaries to clean up their faction status page. The link to liberty laws is broken, a lot of the page coding is broken, there is a lot of rather badly formated and useless text there. And the worst thing, some of it is also out-dated. Apparently the [LN] shoot indy navy for shooting nomads now. How the hell are people who like to play this game casually suposed to know that, when it's not even written on the faction status page that they shouldnt. Another time I saw a LN official tell indies not to shoot a LR- tagged bomber, without giving any reason. Meh. Yesterday, I saw situation that was both funny and sad at the same time. Two hogosha ships hang out at Newak, for an hour, without speaking a single word. Just sitting there. One indy with a unofficial tag who says he's admiral says thats fine. Another indy comes along and says its not fine because hogosha are known to pirate liberty ships in the borderwolds, and are marked as unfriendly towards LN, and asks them to leave. The tagged-admiral says no they are fine and tells him not to shoot them. The other indy ignores them and thinks what appears to be the right thing to do ackording to the faction status page. If they dont complay, shoot them. Then an official LN pops up and says that he shouldnt have shot them because hogosha are not unfriendly. This official navy guy obviously didnt know what is written on his own faction status page. From what the official LN tell the indies what is right and wrong ingame its really rather arbitrary and even in direct contradiction to the official status on the forum.
So either the LN officials make it clear and easy for people to know what to do, and they at least put that information clearly into the status page, or you avoid those situations by yourself. Trying to get indies to guess right what the actual policy is, when often there actually IS no clear policy on behalf of the officials is rather unrealistic.
(01-25-2013, 12:54 PM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: Awareness is not the same as attitude. Some may know of the correct laws, but do not care to adhere to them. Others may not care to learn (either unwilling or unable), even after being directed towards them. "You can take a horse to water..."
That's not the topic here though is it? I am referring to the players who attempt to enforce the laws but do so incorrectly as they are unaware.
There is not much to be done about the type of player you indicate. They choose to abuse or ignore the laws, sure you can take them to water, but you'd be better off drowning some of them in it
(01-25-2013, 01:01 PM)Hauruck Wrote: ...It just happens to be so that the primaries decided that other rheinland ships should be shot at but not ALG, for some reason.
That's not a decision by the [LN] - you're looking at the Devs for that one.
As for the rest of your post? Take it to the [LN] feedback thread, for specific complaints.
Also, I smell Karlotta. The timing is too coincidental.
(01-25-2013, 01:03 PM)Von Richtofen Wrote:
(01-25-2013, 12:54 PM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: Awareness is not the same as attitude. Some may know of the correct laws, but do not care to adhere to them. Others may not care to learn (either unwilling or unable), even after being directed towards them. "You can take a horse to water..."
That's not the topic here though is it? I am referring to the players who attempt to enforce the laws but do so incorrectly as they are unaware.
There is not much to be done about the type of player you indicate. They choose to abuse or ignore the laws, sure you can take them to water, but you'd be better off drowning some of them in it
Perhaps I misunderstood then, but in part my comment remains the same: the [LN] could go so far as to privately link the laws to each and every LNS captain, but it would still be the responsibility of each indie player to learn the laws. They're happy to offer explanations to those with questions*, but if those questions don't even get asked... we're back to square one.
*though I do boast to know the Liberty laws better than some of the [LN], having been a primary contributor to the 2011 and 2012 revisions...