Capital Ships and the Future of Discovery RP 24/7

[Thyrzul]

Okay, same difference. Who determines the "proper" use of a Capship? Technically, the Admins/dev team should be the ONLY ones making that decision. Not some small sub-section of the community.

Exactly, but I believe they have already done so and already gave the community guidance through the description of ships, and many lore-related information regarding the status of each faction.

You may not like it that a Zoner group has decided to use their Juggernauts to spearhead some kind of assault/defense, but that should be their decision on how to use their capship, not yours.

I do not like zoners using their caps on an aggressive way, because that is not what I've learnt and experienced from other zoners, that's not what I've read in zoner lore and various infocards suggesting neutrality and diplomatic skills, and most importantly, that's not what the line on the Zoner ID restricting all combat to self defense suggests to me.

Just like anybody else, they neither can do whatever they want just because they got a shipline on par with houses and then somehow they got some lore strapped to them to justify it.

Here's a thought - instead of just restricting BS by ID or via special permission of a faction/group - why don't you just increase the cost of purchase for BSs and all BS-relative weapons and equipment?

I believe reading somewhere that long ago caps used to cost around the 100mils. Now you see where the prices are at. Been done before, it will only lead to more powertrading.

Then....the most dedicated who actually get them are going to be the people who will put in the time/effort to earn the money via trading, mining, etc. (which gives pirates, escorts, etc. more things to do, increasing server activity altogether).

Activity in itself will not grant quality roleplay and proper cap usage, and activity itself is not what we would aim for with cap restriction. Hell yes, such a move could make many leave, but lol, this community is dying any ways, one of the reasons for it being that quality players get fed up with lolwuts and just simply leave. Why shouldn't we keep them instead of said lolwuts?

This seems more of a positive reinforcement for earning caps than simply restricting them.

I foresee no significant change to the current state.

Or...maybe make them build-able from PoBs? There's an idea...

Waaaay more powertrading. But then they could cost commodities instead of simply credits, which I find interesting, so yes, I can agree with this idea, just like I did before when others brought it up.

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[Lonely_Ghost]

Here's a thought - instead of just restricting BS by ID or via special permission of a faction/group - why don't you just increase the cost of purchase for BSs and all BS-relative weapons and equipment?

More powertrade, powermining. Players will just spend more time in silent trade and mining. Those players who collecting money for something, aren't very great RPers in generaly, especially when they are halted by pirate. Do we rly need it?

My opinion- problem with players, who dumbly using capital ships- lack of consiquences. FR5 in best way. Np, they will just make other cap.
Captain of capital ship, for ignoring an order could lose his position, dont he?
From Battleship to Gunboat.

Just an idea...to give FR 6 or 7,8,9...any number. To dismist captain from duty.
If noted player has been warned in forum or in game several time, that he should to follow some RP and orders, in case he wants to fly drd, but ingnored them all, they could ask for admins to downgrade ship. From battleship, to gunship...not exacly like ofcrs. Yeah, LR no mix with FL, but still, if you can't drive your car in right way, give back your license, and take bicycle. Something like that in game...

[GTB]

Do that then, only allow high ranking official faction members to use caps and see what happens? I suspect you’d see a drop in activity on the server myself, because how many trade to buy a BS, or trade once having one to upgrade it with the best equipment like armour costing a fortune e.t.c.

You’d be taking away the reason for some people to bother playing on the server anymore, unless they just want to trade for the sake of trading. As it doesn't take much trading to buy a Snub or a VHF for 8 or 9m. So what are they then trading for after that unless owning a POB, which not many run? I do think it would have a pretty adverse affect on the server players if you did this... but try it and see?

[Highland Laddie]

I do not like zoners using their caps on an aggressive way, because that is not what I've learnt and experienced from other zoners, that's not what I've read in zoner lore and various infocards suggesting neutrality and diplomatic skills, and most importantly, that's not what the line on the Zoner ID restricting all combat to self defense suggests to me.

Based on what I've read, the current Zoner war had plenty RP behind it - that being that one section of Zoners (ZA) were being told by the Order to halt their harvesting of Nomad remains, which they refused. This led to 2 things:
1. Other Zoner groups allied with the Order started attacking ZA ships
2. ZA bases guarding jump holes in Omicron-74 started shooting everybody.

This particular situation, in my opinion, should not be a driving force or issue at all behind restricting Capship usage, because to me it seems all of the problems in this situation are RP-based, not ship-use based. And those players who are abusing their IDs should be sanctioned/Bastilled until the situation is taken care of. Otherwise...I've never seen the Omicrons so active, nor the Zoners so stirred up before. It's about time they did something useful with all those Juggernauts.

Now, ZonerZonerZoner aside, have we not already had discussions before about official factions being able to take control of Indie players flying their IDs and Capships? If there are Liberty indies flying Dreads around doing lolwuttery, players can just as easily file a complaint on the forum, and ask the LN| to shoot these buggers mercilessly if they see them being lolwuts in their ZOI, right?

That seems like a better option than taking away rights/ships from other players who are otherwise not being lolwuts or breaking any rules.

More powertrade, powermining. Players will just spend more time in silent trade and mining. Those players who collecting money for something, aren't very great RPers in generaly, especially when they are halted by pirate. Do we rly need it?

Well, why not do some power-Pirating on all these power-players then? Your actions FORCE interaction. If a guy doesn't care about interacting with you while you pirate him, then you BLOW HIM AWAY without remorse. End of story. These are the lolwuts you don't care about anyways, right?

I'm sorry that some people only have the mentality that every interaction between players on this server must somehow end in a 40 minute/ 20+ page romance novel, but RP or not, people aren't on this server because they want to write a book.

As much as the "old-timers" might be mourning the lack of RP nowadays and the server dying, etc, you need to have a balance rather than just screwing either the PvP community or the RP-only community.

[Lythrilux]

Do that then, only allow high ranking official faction members to use caps and see what happens? I suspect you’d see a drop in activity on the server myself, because how many trade to buy a BS, or trade once having one to upgrade it with the best equipment like armour costing a fortune e.t.c.

You’d be taking away the reason for some people to bother playing on the server anymore, unless they just want to trade for the sake of trading.

Those are the kind of people we'd be willing to drop. They come here with no intention of RP but to get the biggest ship possible then to just lol around in it.

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[Thyrzul]

Based on what I've read, the current Zoner war had plenty RP behind it - that being that one section of Zoners (ZA) were being told by the Order to halt their harvesting of Nomad remains, which they refused. This led to 2 things:
1. Other Zoner groups allied with the Order started attacking ZA ships
2. ZA bases guarding jump holes in Omicron-74 started shooting everybody.

This particular situation, in my opinion, should not be a driving force or issue at all behind restricting Capship usage, because to me it seems all of the problems in this situation are RP-based, not ship-use based. And those players who are abusing their IDs should be sanctioned/Bastilled until the situation is taken care of. Otherwise...I've never seen the Omicrons so active, nor the Zoners so stirred up before. It's about time they did something useful with all those Juggernauts.

Now, ZonerZonerZoner aside, have we not already had discussions before about official factions being able to take control of Indie players flying their IDs and Capships? If there are Liberty indies flying Dreads around doing lolwuttery, players can just as easily file a complaint on the forum, and ask the LN| to shoot these buggers mercilessly if they see them being lolwuts in their ZOI, right?

That seems like a better option than taking away rights/ships from other players who are otherwise not being lolwuts or breaking any rules.

And who are the ZA to refuse to abide by a directive been laid down by an ally of theirs and been agreed upon the rest of zoners way before they started to get cocky? That's the issue here. They are not the first to feel they as zoners are on par with the Order or anybody else out there in the Omicrons, just because they got a good few caps in their shipline.

And they are not the only ones, not once I've seen Juggies roam house space while the infocard clearly states that very few do fly around and very few know about their existence. Yeah, good job, quite few, just half a house per each lolneph wandering into house space.

Another example, not to bash just Zoners every time, how about looking around my stuff, why not? InRP 3 or 4 Redemptions, and a li'l bit more Obstinates form the backbone of the Roussillon Battlegroup, tasked with the defense of Roussillon, and thus remaining in the system whole time, with the exception of the occasional 1-2 cruisers helping out on the Leeds frontier. Guess what, I've witnessed 3 indie Redemptions joining the defense forces in Leeds orbit, and rumors from an external source that shortly an even bigger battlegroup of indies will want to assault Omicron Alpha. So much for the issue being "zonerzonerzoner-only".

And lol, last time one of my members reported an LPI gunboat to the official faction for attacking a Council vessel just because he thought Council are GRN spies, inRP the official questioned the sufficiency of the evidence, ooRP I heard somewhere that they can't really do anything with indies. (Note: Liberty Laws clearly state that Council are welcome in Liberty space, and evidence clearly shown said lolwut accusing my fellow member for being GRN spy. Note also that the incident resulted in losing said member due to him getting fed up with lolberty.)

Well, why not do some power-Pirating on all these power-players then? Your actions FORCE interaction. If a guy doesn't care about interacting with you while you pirate him, then you BLOW HIM AWAY without remorse. End of story. These are the lolwuts you don't care about anyways, right?

I'm sorry that some people only have the mentality that every interaction between players on this server must somehow end in a 40 minute/ 20+ page romance novel, but RP or not, people aren't on this server because they want to write a book.

As much as the "old-timers" might be mourning the lack of RP nowadays and the server dying, etc, you need to have a balance rather than just screwing either the PvP community or the RP-only community.

Lol, answering to powertrading with powerpirating would only force quantity "RP" (if that can be called RP at all), not quality RP. And there is a huge difference between the two. Most lolwuts won't care with interaction, they only consider it as wasting their time. They would rather blow up and spend their valuable time trading somewhere else than idle chatting resulting in no profit. Not even two words.

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[Highland Laddie]

And who are the ZA to refuse to abide by a directive been laid down by an ally of theirs and been agreed upon the rest of zoners way before they started to get cocky? That's the issue here. They are not the first to feel they as zoners are on par with the Order or anybody else out there in the Omicrons, just because they got a good few caps in their shipline.

Is there one official Zoner faction that controls all others? If yes, then they SHOULD have the final word on their RP, and the right to shoot Independent Zoners if they do not comply, right?

Another example, not to bash just Zoners every time, how about looking around my stuff, why not? InRP 3 or 4 Redemptions, and a li'l bit more Obstinates form the backbone of the Roussillon Battlegroup, tasked with the defense of Roussillon, and thus remaining in the system whole time, with the exception of the occasional 1-2 cruisers helping out on the Leeds frontier. Guess what, I've witnessed 3 indie Redemptions joining the defense forces in Leeds orbit, and rumors from an external source that shortly an even bigger battlegroup of indies will want to assault Omicron Alpha. So much for the issue being "zonerzonerzoner-only".

Okay, so why not get rid of the Redemption altogether as a purchasable ship? Does that solve the problem?

And lol, last time one of my members reported an LPI gunboat to the official faction for attacking a Council vessel just because he thought Council are GRN spies, inRP the official questioned the sufficiency of the evidence, ooRP I heard somewhere that they can't really do anything with indies.

Well, going with my previous post, I thought that Official factions were allowed to force their RP on Indies, and attack those who do not comply, yes? Or at least report them with evidence to get them sanctioned? So, I would wonder if the case is that the LPI really cannot do anything, or they are just too lazy to do anything?

Lol, answering to powertrading with powerpirating would only force quantity "RP" (if that can be called RP at all), not quality RP. And there is a huge difference between the two. Most lolwuts won't care with interaction, they only consider it as wasting their time. They would rather blow up and spend their valuable time trading somewhere else than idle chatting resulting in no profit. Not even two words.

To hear a lot of the "old-timers" whine about it, this is what they say is going on already...so at the very least you're going to make it take longer for the lolwuts to get their Caps than normal. Otherwise, business as usual?

On a side note, as someone who does pirate, I can tell you that I think ALL traders need to give pirates a little leeway when they're pirating and not expect some HUGE RP experience, because pirates often get the short end of the stick when they try to RP with folks, who are usually only trying to A) talk the pirate down from his demand to maximize their own profit, or B) buy time for reinforcements to arrive and chase the pirate off or kill him. I'm not going to fault a pirate for being curt when he's the one in more danger of being blasted with every second in hostile space. That's part of the FUN of the interaction and the thrill of being a pirate.

Anyways, I think I've contributed enough to this. I'm not trying to pick any fights or anything. And again....I barely fly caps as it is.

[Thyrzul]

Is there one official Zoner faction that controls all others? If yes, then they SHOULD have the final word on their RP, and the right to shoot Independent Zoners if they do not comply, right?

Currently Phoenix is the official faction using the Zoner ID. Not sure why didn't they act as I think they should have acted in the first place.

Okay, so why not get rid of the Redemption altogether as a purchasable ship? Does that solve the problem?

I wish it could, with only the pre-estabilished ones remaining.

Well, going with my previous post, I thought that Official factions were allowed to force their RP on Indies, and attack those who do not comply, yes? Or at least report them with evidence to get them sanctioned? So, I would wonder if the case is that the LPI really cannot do anything, or they are just too lazy to do anything?

Official factions got only 4.7 for that and even that can't do anything. The problem is that indies got too much freedom compared to how few tools officials have to "control" or at least guide them. The subject been brought up on several occasions already over skype, and it is time to dedicate a thread to it. Once I'm done with my exams, I'll try something.

To hear a lot of the "old-timers" whine about it, this is what they say is going on already...so at the very least you're going to make it take longer for the lolwuts to get their Caps than normal. Otherwise, business as usual?

Ten days or twelve, where the hell does it matter now? We don't want more powertrading, we want to render quality roleplay to caps.

On a side note, as someone who does pirate, I can tell you that I think ALL traders need to give pirates a little leeway when they're pirating and not expect some HUGE RP experience, because pirates often get the short end of the stick when they try to RP with folks, who are usually only trying to A) talk the pirate down from his demand to maximize their own profit, or B) buy time for reinforcements to arrive and chase the pirate off or kill him. I'm not going to fault a pirate for being curt when he's the one in more danger of being blasted with every second in hostile space. That's part of the FUN of the interaction and the thrill of being a pirate.

Neither I meant novels or a tea party, but lack of RP applies to lolwuts on both sides. We have the silent runner as well as our beloved "2milordie" too. That is also not a new issue. Giving more reason to powertrade won't help it.

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[Anaximander]

You’d be taking away the reason for some people to bother playing on the server anymore, unless they just want to trade for the sake of trading.

Those are the kind of people we'd be willing to drop. They come here with no intention of RP but to get the biggest ship possible then to just lol around in it.

...and then get killed repeatedly because a cap is a really poor choice if they want to stay alive, they stop playing the game and leave the server.

There is no problem with capital ships.

P.S. If you were privy to the tech-sharing circus of 4.85 and previous versions, you'd know why official factions cannot be bestowed with this kind of trust by default.

P.P.S. Laddie made a lot of really strong points.

[GTB]

I used to have a cap, I've owned a few of them over time in fact (battleships). In the end I got rid, and after only a short time using each one because they're generally boring to fly. And it's not that hard to get killed in a cap, all you need is two decent bombers on you and you're struggling to stay alive, even with a flak turret to shoot the incoming nova getting spammed from a safe bomber distance. Especially so in a BS because you have no thruster to even chase the bombers, your a sitting duck as I soon found out with my first BS owned.

Quite a few buy caps and then end up not keeping them. I've spoken to a few in-game before who's said they owned one, but no longer fly them for pretty much same reasons. From what I saw before, most use them for missions.

I don't think Battleships are the big problem, more people flying Destroyers from what I've seen in the past.