Ok, on Corsairs and their Outcast 'counterbalance.' Corsairs do things other than pirate, like smuggle, or fight Outcasts. Outcasts, on the other hand, do things other than smuggle, such as pirate, or fight Corsairs.
The Corsairs can be defined by their piracy. Every single Corsair, from the eldest grandmother to the wettest behind the ears whelp has hopped in a titan (designed to be a pirate fighter, just so you know) and gone and fought with it. Pirated a synthfoods transport. And there's the key difference: Not every Outcast has even ever seen a Sabre, but they've all grown something, they've seen a plantation. I'm not saying Corsairs are nothing but pirates, but they are a Pirate Nation. their name means pirate. And outcasts are not. The average corsair is involved in piracy. The average Outcast, on the other hand, is not. Unless you've missed it, I'm calling Corsairs a Pirate Nation (as opposed to pirates) and I'm calling the Outcasts a Rogue Nation. Since you're so deeply involved in defending the Corsair cause here, I think you should notice: the word 'nation' gives you rights. I'm not trying to take anything from the Corsairs, or give anything to the Outcasts. This thread is about giving the criminal factions more space to RP their real identities, rather than be 'Pirates.'
What I propose for the Outcast ID, is something akin to the merc id: "may occasionally pirate"
' Wrote:Ok, on Corsairs and their Outcast 'counterbalance.' Corsairs do things other than pirate, like smuggle, or fight Outcasts. Outcasts, on the other hand, do things other than smuggle, such as pirate, or fight Corsairs.
The Corsairs can be defined by their piracy. Every single Corsair, from the eldest grandmother to the wettest behind the ears whelp has hopped in a titan (designed to be a pirate fighter, just so you know) and gone and fought with it. Pirated a synthfoods transport. And there's the key difference: Not every Outcast has even ever seen a Sabre, but they've all grown something, they've seen a plantation. I'm not saying Corsairs are nothing but pirates, but they are a Pirate Nation. their name means pirate. And outcasts are not. The average corsair is involved in piracy. The average Outcast, on the other hand, is not. Unless you've missed it, I'm calling Corsairs a Pirate Nation (as opposed to pirates) and I'm calling the Outcasts a Rogue Nation. Since you're so deeply involved in defending the Corsair cause here, I think you should notice: the word 'nation' gives you rights. I'm not trying to take anything from the Corsairs, or give anything to the Outcasts. This thread is about giving the criminal factions more space to RP their real identities, rather than be 'Pirates.'
What I propose for the Outcast ID, is something akin to the merc id: "may occasionally pirate"
Again, hit the issue on the head. Outcast ID shouldn't be basic pirate, and merc is probably a lot closer (says something about military action being okay if I'm not mistaken, 'military action on unlawful side' (rogue nation type stuff) is allowed). So a hybrid of the merc and smuggler IDs should work for them, and probably cover most everything they should be doing, including the occasional pirating.
As far as Rheinland unlawfuls go, it appears that while all three groups started as ideological terrorists and ended with some pirating, only the Bundschuh are still tied closely enough to their morals to be justified in large-scale terrorism, while (as the news in the Dresden system indicates) Red Hessians should be allotted the occasional merciless act of terrorism, as long as they profit somehow.
MMkay, so Outcasts and Corsairs should get some type of rogue nation status (the corsair one far more pirate, the outcast one far more smuggler), and the Kusari unlawfuls are all terrorists in some form, differing mainly in goals and targets as opposed to methods. I think Liberty unlawfuls are well taken care of, and the Rheinlanders I mentioned above; do we have any resident experts on Bretonian unlawfuls? There was some confusion earlier...
In terms of Britonian unlawfuls. Both could be considered terrorists. Mollies are fighting for the liberation of Dublin from the Britonian Crown. The Gaians are fighting against the corprate and Britonian threat to the planets of Gaia and Harris. The diffrence is the Mollies have gold. They can fund a signifacant war for the independence of Dublin. The Gaians on the other hand depend on donations from wealthy Britonians who sympithize with thier cause.
In a broader context, I think we need to consider why people in general resort to terrorism. It's generally out of some ideological or religous ferver, along with a lack of ability to exert military force. Terrorist look for soft targets. Terrorists wouldnt be able to build their own ships and launch mighty armadas. I think the first criteria in determening if a faction should be terrorists is that their NPC's fly civilain ships. Terrorists would only be able to get ahold of what is publicly avalible. This rules out The Mollies, GC, Blood Dragons( I am not speaking of NovaPG, as it sort of exists outside of the Vanilla FL universe), Hogoshu, Lane Hackers, Liberty Rougues, Outcasts, Corsiars, Hessians ( am not really sure about the Rhienldand pirates. )
The next criteria I would use is who the group attacks. A terrorist group is not generally looking to fight against an Army in normal combat. They are more likley to attack the corprate intrests that sybolize thier struggle. The unlawful factions that attack militaries directly are The Mollies, Blood Dragons, GC, Liberty Rougues, Hessians, (again, dont really know about Rheindland). The Gaians main enemies are BMM and Planetform. LWB and Farmers Alliance are against Synthfoods, and Xeno's are against non-liberty companies. (Although I think the Farmers Alliance would target all non-Kusari corparations as the Kusari are fairly Xenophobic as a people to begin with).
In my opinion the Terrorist groups should be Farmers Alliance, LWB, Gaians, and Xenos. They all fly civilain ships, have small zone's of operation, dont attack the house's directly, but rather attack the soft targets of the houses. Also They are all small factions that have small budgets paid by donations from sympathetic constituancies. They don't need to pirate, and in fact pirating goes against thier goals. When Ze'ev pirates a liberty transport, he is allowing the thing to happen that he is fighting against. He doesnt want to make money, he wants to stop the spread of foerign influance in Kusari (ex. Roponggi Station:angry:.)
As for the others, I dont think there needs to be a change in the ID's of outcasts or corsairs, both are allowed to pirate and allowed to smuggle, and while I guess it's not codified in the ID, both groups already police their systems.
The rest of the unlawfuls are pretty much straight up pirates. Don't really need a change there. I think we should try and keep the discussion on what groups should get terrorist IDs. The more changes you try to deal with in one thread, the less likely it is to get any of them done.
The only faction I'm not sure about is the Lane Hackers, I really dont know enough about thier RP goals as a faction, but I dont think they fit into the straight up pirate catagory.
Unselie, as i said, Corsairs are more Pirates then Outcasts, I agree.
But, do you seriously think that their only goal is just to get richer and richer?
Don't you think that assault on Rheinland has shown their true ideas?
They also are greedy for power, they want to rule the Sirius as well.
But they can't do it peacefully like Outcasts, trough Cardamine.
They must take it by force.. So, isn't this making them more Terrorist then Outcasts?
Yes, Outcasts are a Rogue nation, but Corsairs can't be simply subjected under the Pirate nation tag, because Pirating is what they do in their free time.
They too wish more power. They are very aggressive (Theta/Zoners example).
They also picked their allies in that way (Gaians, Farmers, Unioners (were, not anymore), and i wouldn't be surprised if they come to an agreement with Xenos, as Liberty is the only house without their influence, and Xenos are searching for allies).
They are Pirates, but they are in the same time something more.
If Outcasts are a Rogue Nation, then Corsairs are an Unlawful Military nation (don't know the other name for this, except a Terrorist nation, which obviously doesn't fit).
Much more aggressive, much more rude, and they use direct force to accomplish their goals.
Actually, it would be absurd for a Corsair to pirate on a Cardamine smuggler.
Same for Outcasts and Artifact smuggler.
Not only in their systems (Gamma/Alpha), but also anywhere in their ZOI.
They would organize actions to stop and destroy the smugglers of the opposite "nation", because that is what they need in that never ending war.
I am not defending the Corsairs here, don't get me wrong.
I just think that if one side should be changed in a way, other one should be as well, in the same or another way.
Corsairs and Outcasts are intentionally kept in balance, and it should stay like that.
About the NPC's..
No, BHG don't ask you for cargo, they ask you for pirates and pilots.
Police asks you for contraband cargo only, or pirates/pilots.
Outcasts and Corsairs will ask you for cargo, whatever they like.
Outcasts asked me for 4k of Nioblium once, so you can guess.
Hogosha NPC's are asking me to drop Water from my cargo all the time.
Hessians are asking for cargo as well.
Zelot,
Xenos can never finance the Farmers Alliance, trust me.
They are so poor that they can't even finance themselves in a proper way.
They don't give a damn about Kusari matters.
Lucendez Wrote:
It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.
gaians: the infocard states that they have partly given up their ideas about gaia and resorted to low level piracy.
about terrorists:
the terrorist ID states that only YOUR roleplay dictates your targets. including no necessity to ask for tax / cargo.
terrorism as a xeno is not the same. i don t think they are allowed to destroy a trader without asking for a tax. i think i remember a thread about this one feature of the xeno ID - and it was said that it does indeed say terrorist, but it is not identical to the terrorist ID. xenos are by the rules - pirates.
so, we do have only generic terrorists being real terrorists - every other faction i think is considered pirates and are not allowed to blow anything up without a faction based RP, and when its about traders without asking for a tax.
I would think Xenos would be able to blow up foreign shipping, as that's what they're after, but if they see something like a Universal transport, or other Liberty-based company, they'd leave it alone.
Quote:I think the first criteria in determening if a faction should be terrorists is that their NPC's fly civilain ships
Obviously you've not encountered GC NPCs very often, as they never fly anything except civilian line ships. So by your reckoning, they pass that first criteria.
Quote:The next criteria I would use is who the group attacks. A terrorist group is not generally looking to fight against an Army in normal combat. They are more likley to attack the corprate intrests that sybolize thier struggle.
Actually, most terrorists (both RL and in FL) attack both corporate and military targets. IRA for instance attacked civilian and military targets. So does Al Qaeda. Just their goals and methods differ. Same for most terrorists. The GC and Blood Dragons (and the other groups you listed) all attack military and civilian ships. The GC/BD are fighting in a long struggle for a regime change in Kusari and are willing to employ varied tactics to do it. The Golden Chrysanthemum are often more ruthless in the execution of their plans than the Blood Dragons, and their ultimate goals are different, but it doesn't make them any less terrorists. They are using terror tactics and inflicting maximum damage on both military and corporate (Samura) installations in an effort to make the government(s) cede political ground in their favour (which is all terrorists in RL or FL ever want to do anyway).
Quote:I would think Xenos would be able to blow up foreign shipping, as that's what they're after, but if they see something like a Universal transport, or other Liberty-based company, they'd leave it alone.
They may also attack it, in an effort to strongarm the Liberty government into ceding to their desires.
Enemy factions should be free to kill each other on sight (i.e. ANY Outcast should be allowed to kill ANY Corsair and that should be clarified in the IDs). I believe it's simple as this concerning both the terrorists and pirates. If you see your enemy, you're allowed and pretty much bound to RP to blow it, no questions asked. The stance, towards other parties, should be restricted to occasional pirating.
A Corsair smuggler should avoid like hell any system where he detected an Outcast patrol. The way we play today, the smuggler can simply risk it and pay a fine in case he happens to be stopped, because he has a meta-game shielding against those who would, in a more realistic scenario, simply destroy him on sight.
I agree that both Outcasts and Corsairs are nations, unrecognized by the other four Houses, but nations as far as they are concerned. As such, they should be granted full military and policing authority within their zones of influence, exactly like the Houses police and military forces have. When outside their zones of influence, they have no authority, and any hostile act is either an act of piracy or war, but that in no sense differs from a RM pilot bossing and shooting people around inside Kusari space.
Every faction ID should be granted KoS permission against that faction's direct enemies. That should solve the issues concerning the limitations the current IDs put on these factions RPs. Terrorists have specific targets and should be granted permission to KoS them described in their IDs. The unrecognized Houses (Outcasts and Corsairs) should have an ID that grants them powers to police their Houses. The rogue groups should stick to their current act (acts of piracy against commerce and aggression against the lawful forces).
EDIT: In the issue of Outcasts and Corsairs authority, better replace ZOI with their primary systems and guard systems. I didn't mean anywhere they operate, but their homes really.
' Wrote:I would think Xenos would be able to blow up foreign shipping, as that's what they're after, but if they see something like a Universal transport, or other Liberty-based company, they'd leave it alone.
we do that..only universal in neutral...all other liberty coorps are enemies...Aegira especially
' Wrote:Enemy factions should be free to kill each other on sight (i.e. ANY Outcast should be allowed to kill ANY Corsair and that should be clarified in the IDs). I believe it's simple as this concerning both the terrorists and pirates. If you see your enemy, you're allowed and pretty much bound to RP to blow it, no questions asked. The stance, towards other parties, should be restricted to occasional pirating.
A Corsair smuggler should avoid like hell any system where he detected an Outcast patrol. The way we play today, the smuggler can simply risk it and pay a fine in case he happens to be stopped, because he has a meta-game shielding against those who would, in a more realistic scenario, simply destroy him on sight.
I agree that both Outcasts and Corsairs are nations, unrecognized by the other four Houses, but nations as far as they are concerned. As such, they should be granted full military and policing authority within their zones of influence, exactly like the Houses police and military forces have. When outside their zones of influence, they have no authority, and any hostile act is either an act of piracy or war, but that in no sense differs from a RM pilot bossing and shooting people around inside Kusari space.
Every faction ID should be granted KoS permission against that faction's direct enemies. That should solve the issues concerning the limitations the current IDs put on these factions RPs. Terrorists have specific targets and should be granted permission to KoS them described in their IDs. The unrecognized Houses (Outcasts and Corsairs) should have an ID that grants them powers to police their Houses. The rogue groups should stick to their current act (acts of piracy against commerce and aggression against the lawful forces).
EDIT: In the issue of Outcasts and Corsairs authority, better replace ZOI with their primary systems and guard systems. I didn't mean anywhere they operate, but their homes really.
I agree that factions should have KoS permission for direct enemies; for example, Corsairs and Outcasts are at full, nation-scale war just like Bretonia and Kusari, and Planetform's very existence is anathema to the Gaians, who should execute them on sight and destroy the commodities they drop.
The Corsair/Outcast debate isn't progressing too well; I suggest that we acknowledge them as rogue nations of a sort and leave the experts (like the Brotherhood, Benitez, Reapers of Sirius type people) to discuss what their ID structure should be in a different thread. They're able to RP decently with current IDs (despite the need for change) and aren't as pressing a concern as the fact that virtually no one plays any terrorist-types other than Xenos/Gaians, and they are bound into actions contrary to their RP by their IDs. Let's start getting more definitive stuff on their IDs and recommended changes as opposed to arguments of basic principle. (such as the psychopath vs terrorist vs violent activist debate in the other thread; worry about nomenclature later)
I'm going to go around open-SP in my spare time looking at the IDs of various 'pirate' factions, but because of the starting rep restrictions it would be simpler if people could post all the pirate IDs they come across in this thread. THEN we can get something done.
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