So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much?

[GTB]

You mentioning base killing lolwuts reminded me of the lollegates rampaging around Sirius popping bases seemingly randomly. They actually hail the ZA, and they just don't attack their bases, rather the bases of their enemies. Now which side are we talking about here?

Not sure about this, but thought Corsairs are not getting involved in the killing of those ZA bases anymore. I can understand why, that system doesn’t belong to Corsairs and those bases being in that system "does help" bring some activity near Gamma - their own system. It wouldn’t really be in the Corsairs best interest to help remove those POB, because once gone Theta and that Zoner system will be much quieter, meaning they'll have less to pirate heading that way close towards Gamma e.t.c.

So that doesn't help the Corsairs cause the long-run. If I was a Corsair leader, that would be my way of thinking. Lets keep out this war because we can only lose - not gain anything from it by helping remove those ZA POB. In fact, it would benefit the Corsairs more to help ZA keep those bases their. Haha!

[Mercarryn]

So where do you draw the line then? 3 bases wouldn't count? Are 2 already

sufficient? How can the gaming of 2 players have an impact on a whole system when the actions of 10+ cannot? How can it be that bases that are set up by a inRP very small faction that couldn't even have the power to set up 2 bases can reasonably set up four, without any support from their peers while screwing over everyone?
InRP O74 is sealed from the outside, they have no friends left that could open up a corridor for them. The bases were set up oorply and are supplied oorply, thus their lifetime is oorp, too. They contribute nothing to the discovery RP server safe for bringing out the worst in people wherever you look- and while it might be unfair to blame it on the ZA alone i would whip out a nice 1.1, 1.5 and 6.9. hammer sprinkled with a bit of 2.1 for abusing game mechanics to achieve the former.
Kill off the bases, refund the guys so they can set up shop in an actual unclaimed system. And yes there is no guideline because few people would ahve thoguht that there are players that overstretch the limits by that margin. This situation is simply bad for the general server atmosphere- and within this atmosphere painfully obvious oorp actions should ahve absolutly zero influence on lore.

I’m betting if you did that, you removed the ZA bases and refunded them back with cash. That may well end ZA as a faction on the server. No amount of money refunded back can repay the time they’ve invested building 4 bases up to Core 4 level. Don't underestimate people being TICKED OFF because you just removed months of their hard work put in, that they just up and leave.

And thinking they would re-build those bases again in another system is wishful thinking I’d say. You know what would most likely happen, those people who’s been trying to kill their 4 bases now at Core 4 and failed, would make any new ZA bases built in another system (starting at a lower level) an early target to take out next time around, because some of these people are base killing lolwuts who would jump to ALT char to do it. You can see that one happening right away!

It's sad, all this with ZA isn't about inRP anymore. It's all about removing their bases. Why remove their bases anyway, delete them. Why not leave them intact, but move them into another system - if they was willing to do something like that to end all this?

Wrong, just wrong.

The two main things you might have not realised is: ZA used those bases to lock off '74 in the past two times now, because it suited them after they got a bloody nose from some people
After the initial sieges against any base were not successfull, at least every faction opposed to ZA tried to to negotiate by roleplay with them the dismantling of a part of their turrets. Still, ZA does not even try to make a counter proposal within roleplay, so that all factions can happily continue and leave each other alone.
Instead again: A "Lolnope" from ZA again. And you are surprised that a little faction with only a 3-5 players oorp draw so much anger?

[Rodnas]

Well, i am kind of a corsair leader- and my way of thinking is simply this:

OoRP i want to have as little as possible to do with this crap, as i said before, it is really showing the low end of behaviour in disco- also,i am/was under the impression the ZA would go more diplomatic ways instead of head first into the wall, not to speak of the futility of pewing a base that cannot be pewed due to server restrictions.

InRP: the Corsairs have no stake in 74, none of our trade routes goes there, our supplies come via theta and 41. We hold no grudge towards the ZA because they are small fleas and their trouble is more of the Zoners concern in general. We don't care about nommie remains as the order does either. We won't assist the ZA in any way though because they are fighting folks we like much more than them (aka all other zoenrs) or we don't want to draw out of the deep omicrons (aka the order).
The baseline is- as long as teh conflict doesn't really move to theta it is none of our business and the Corsairs have enough enemies to fight, no need to squabble over a few ragtag wannabe zoners. We want order restored so we don't ahve to watch our backyard so closely- how that is achieved doesn't really matter as long as it's fast ( the tranports passing through are mostly those you wouldn't tax anyways so no big plus in revenues here!)

Those "Corsairs" you see pewing bases out of Corsair ZOI and whatnot are, while you can't take their Sair ID, not considered corsairs, by the way.....and if they were they would concern themselves with bases relevant to the corsairs instead of taking it out on those who can't defend themselves

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Read about: The Benitez Familia and Trueno Benitez

---Not available for any disco stuff these days(and for an extended period of time to come, too ---

[GTB]

After the initial sieges against any base were not successfull, at least every faction opposed to ZA tried to to negotiate by roleplay with them the dismantling of a part of their turrets. Still, ZA does not even try to make a counter proposal within roleplay, so that all factions can happily continue and leave each other alone.
Instead again: A "Lolnope" from ZA again. And you are surprised that a little faction with only a 3-5 players oorp draw so much anger?

But they don't really need to "dismantle" any of their player-base turrets, why couldn't a peaceful agreement be reached if they simply disable them instead. Asking ZA to dismantle turrets would leave their bases vulnerable to attack, should one faction later decide to then break the treaty on purpose.

You can't blame ZA being very cautious about not agreeing to that one.

[Rodnas]

Then again, as their bases are indestructible with or without turrets.....it shouldn't be such a biggie?

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Read about: The Benitez Familia and Trueno Benitez

---Not available for any disco stuff these days(and for an extended period of time to come, too ---

[Duvelske]

After the initial sieges against any base were not successfull, at least every faction opposed to ZA tried to to negotiate by roleplay with them the dismantling of a part of their turrets. Still, ZA does not even try to make a counter proposal within roleplay, so that all factions can happily continue and leave each other alone.
Instead again: A "Lolnope" from ZA again. And you are surprised that a little faction with only a 3-5 players oorp draw so much anger?

But they don't really need to "dismantle" any base turrets, why couldn't a peaceful agreement be reached if they simply disable them instead. Asking ZA to dismantle turrets would leave their bases vulnerable to attack, should one faction later decide to then break the treaty on purpose.

You can't blame ZA being very cautious about not agreeing to that one.

With a meeting with the taz this was suggested. Just to put it on neutral and that was it. Still after it seems people only like to add fire on it so try to do anything to let it just continue.

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[GTB]

Ah right! So they did that and others still shot the base to restart things off again, which then lead to ZA putting the base turrets back online. Proves my point then, why ZA would be daft to agree dismantling their base turrets.

[Anaximander]

I stated numerous times on what I base my version of the Zoner way. Not just simply on their semi-vague lore, but how players played their Zoner characters out, players who still do so to this day.

But in the past - as well as the present - Zoners have been played differently from your "Zoner Way". You are trying to enforce your view, that one way is "more correct" than the other, but I disagree. I'd like lore patched up and coherent, you know that, but the Zoner community at large seems to be very much against that, so these are the consequences. There's room for a ZA on the ID, within the holed Lore, and they have a shipline to wage war - those are the facts we have to form our roleplay around until something is done to fix up the Zoner NPC faction, ID, Lore and shipline.

Don't you think that if the Zoner way would consist elements of behavior not just unhelpful but actually harmful to their relations with their surroundings and along with that their efforts at survival, they would have gone extinct already way long ago?

Of course I do, I stated that in another Zonerzonerzoner thread. But ZA aren't all Zoners, they're just a splinter group. A suicidal group, I agree, so treat them as such in-rp rather than make elaborate explanations why you should disregard them totally.

There may be other legitimate PoVs, but one ignoring the majority of the details of the relevant events is not a legitimate one in my opinion. And so far you did not present me any other one yet.

Here's the thing, if you haven't realized yet, we disagree on which details are relevant.

As I said, ignoring important details will barely make your PoV legitimate. The case of ZA and TAZ are far from similar. I've pointed out the differences, if you haven't got them, I cannot help you.

I've pointed out to you the important details to me, that I got shot as an Outcast and saw Cardamine trannies get blocked passage through T-29. I think that's important, you say it's irrelevant because Outcast leadership didn't do anything about it, hence it wasn't a problem for the Outcast NPC faction. We disagree. And that's fine. But no matter how much you sugarcoat it, you can't make me adopt your PoV. In the ZA case, Order leadership felt the O74 blockade and reacted on it - and rightly so - but in broad strokes it's the same story; just a different pattern of reaction from leadership and different level of status ZA and TAZ compared.

I did not feel to roleplay out the whole, because not just as the character, but as the player I did not feel the need to pointlessly beg for some change to repair my ship.

In-rp as well as in real life, when you get shot it's only natural to seek justice. How is that "pointless"? Getting shot is a most excellent motivation for retribution. Also as a player I am filthy rich, I don't need the credits, but my character was wrongfully assaulted and demanded satisfaction and was willing to kick up a fuss to get that.

Lol, missing my point entirely. Or just inRP and ooRP again. I don't ask your char to be neutral, I ask you, the player to look at the whole from a neutral, objective standpoint.

When someone shoots me for no reason whatsoever, in spite of lore, diplomacy and what they can reasonably do on their ID, I can't help but interpret that as an act of player douchebaggery, especially when they don't even face me in fair combat. Do you remember the forum uproar when Doj was insta'ing noobs for a day on the server? Where's the difference? There are rules governing one act, but the other is unregulated and left to our good judgement, and I think TAZ failed on that part when they set their base to kill all, yes.

Or do you want to stick to your ooRP hatred and grudges against TAZ, totally ignoring that this is just a game?

I have no oorp "hatred" and "grudges" against TAZ, I said before I respect their legacy and like their roleplay. Just because I strongly dislike how they managed their bases, it doesn't mean I "hate" them or bear a "grudge". They are still my favorite brand of Zoner. Don't paint me to be the Devil, kind Sir, it is rather frustrating and pretty much out of line.

Guess what, neither does the ZA, yet they try to act like they could.

And so what? If it makes other O74 Zoners uneasy, have them do a dirty deal with Order and Corsairs and whoever else they can find to wipe out any and all ZA friendly ship, declare martial law in O74 and invite all the trolly lolgates to shoot any and all Zoner ships and bases in that system, and do a nice writeup about how Zoners for once paid the price and got blood on their hands and how O74 got pro-Corsair/Order ownership/leadership. It could be great stuff.

But roleplay it, for God's sake!

Now ZA can pretty much say "go f-bomb yourselves" to Phoenix, simply because they have those shiny invincible bases.

That's the downside of no base rules. It applies to ZA as well as TAZ and any other base owning group. If you want to solve the problem, fault the bases and lack of rules to govern their use, and not ZA for making that point painfully obvious.

A lot of people can't be bothered to lift a finger to get something they want, a lot of people want to get everything for free.

I never said that. You are so busy exploring your perceived motives of other player's intents; when you have no way of knowing.

It's an uphill climb going against the popular forum trend, let me tell you that, and you won't make any friends from it. Moreover you have to have time to invest, and reasonable English skills. I understand full well why some people won't take that battle, and it's not because they are lazy people who just want to get everything served, and I find it extremely arrogant of you to just label people like that.

"Don't shoot at that tin can! We have more serious adversaries to concentrate on, reorganize assets on more important fronts!" legit?

The way I play this game, I always prioritize shooting players and player objects over combating imaginary enemies. It's no fun to go shoot at thin air in the Omegas, pretending it is full of Hessians, when there are juicy hostile targets right in front of me. It's a computer game.

Sure not, but then Corsairs are not Zoners. Again you compare incomparable entities while blatantly ignoring any differences between Zoners and Corsairs. How am I not surprised?[/color]

So you are saying Zoner society shouldn't regulate itself? I wonder how it hasn't collapsed then. Of course if a Zoner group, like any other faction, claim leadership, they can't sit idle by while another group is going directly against their will. They have to show leadership and act. Zoners are no different than any other group with leadership - they have to do what is necessary to stay in control. If they don't or can't, they should be toppled. Building 4 Core 4 bases in plain sight takes time, and someone should have noticed long before it got to this point and reacted accordingly. They didn't, and that's totally fair to base your roleplay on. In-rp ZA is a challenger to oust the current leadership, treat them as such rather than attack them oorp'ly.

Local Zoners seem to have approved the existence of the stations, or were inactive.

Ok, their loss.

Local Zoners seem pretty much disapprove the usage of the stations, which again you tend to ignore while arguing about the responsibility of Phoenix, along with the fact that by then they were unable to do anything against those stations just like anybody trying to take them down nowadays.

Too bad, if there weren't any Zoner ships around to interfere when all those bases were built and brought up to Core 4, that ship has sailed. That Zoner leadership was lax or inattentive; I treat that as roleplay traits. If the ships weren't there on the server, they weren't there in-rp. We can't just ask for a "rewind" when we blunder and things turn out to get out of hand or say that you are a "master diplomat" or a "skilled leader" in-rp when in reality you suck.

Except it would have clashed with the very basis of roleplay on the server. Or what do you say who should have started the war? Phoenix, using Zoner ID, which states they cannot initiate combat, or ZA, using Zoner ID, which states they cannot initiate combat?

No, I mean pay the price and get someone else to fight the war, even if it costs you your very Zoner soul. If O74 is that important, make the sacrifice and claim ownership backed by Corsairs and Order (and be forever indebted). Or let it slide if the Zoners can't stomach it. Great drama.

The "witch hunt" is going on because ZA did not just plant the original seed, but still keep feeding the hatred they caused against themselves.

Let's rise above that, rather than go "but they started it". Pls.

[Jinx]

a reminder

the base in bretonia - where the BPA crippled the base from within...

.. it seems that the base owner had complied with the RP - and forwarded the admin password to the BPA
.. the same password was then used to destroy the base

and i also remember people in that very community blaming the base owner for being "guillable" to trust the BPA. they blamed him for RPing the password - and put the responsibility to him for loosing his base.



now - if the ZA was to trust the order and their minions - and dismounted their defenses - and then maybe lost their bases - the very same players would then rather probably gleefully comment that it is their fault for trusting them.

with examples like the bretonian base - i would not expect any base owner to trust anyone - and that mistrust is playermade. - base owners might be a bit too paranoid - but thats really what the community has made them to be like.

edit:

i might have described the bretonian base thing too simplistic - so that is just how it LOOKED from the outside to ME.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Rodnas]

Certainly trust is an issue- but once again, if people are not willing to extend trust even if it has some risks( graspable ones, too!) we end up even more in the situation of isolated groups pitting their skypelancery against each other, more paranoia for everyone instead of the intended open and friendly community. Yes this is drawing things far away from the topic, but i would really love to see to see some kind of renewed statment from our beloved high ups that the server is indeed still a roleplaying one - and that roleplaying is not a me/us VS them kind of deal...
Or any other kind of baseline statement...because eeryone here comes to the server with different expectations and understandings of what is rp and "how much of that annoying rp crap is needed"

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Read about: The Benitez Familia and Trueno Benitez

---Not available for any disco stuff these days(and for an extended period of time to come, too ---