"Hulls are usually stronger than shields"
There isnt a written rule that it has to be.
"And shields don't regen quickly."
it's meant to be treated as hull. maybe people would value their shields more if it were the only protection their ship has got.
"And there's such a thing as shieldbusters."
Then give the ship better shields
"And the fact that you speak of a last resort means it's taken into account that this ship might not make it."
I'll bet there's a self-destruct sequence in ships of every intelligence faction or maybe order ships which have secret order tech that can't be captured. Why does this surprise you? If ships in disco were actually built to last then they would be stronger, and there would be severe death penalty so ppl stop dying so often.
"the more sophisticated an AI, the more expensive."
If I read the halo books correctly, Cortana was - "simply" a electronic replication of a human brain. The holodeck in star trek fully constructs its AI based on information of humans.
A coffee machine can definitely be an AI, case in point it may not just be simply filling your mug, but it will also consider your preferences depending on your factors, consider the temperature and sugar/milk levels, consider your health conditions, consider what to greet you and how to respond to you, selectively decide when to tell you to stop drinking coffee its bad for you, and in general get to know you better, etcetera. When a coffee machine reaches that level of intelligence, it will not simply be an "äutomated machine".
"An AI ship needs to calculate a lot of math, distinguish foe from friendly, understand its own position in space (and time)."
Basically autopilot, navigations systems, auto aiming turrets and a whole lot of other stuff that doesn't sound too difficult (remember there's centuries of technological progression since then).
"the more sophisticated an AI, the more expensive."
Consider how AI is achieved now - written as software that interacts with a standard set of processing equipment. So if in the future we continue to build AI this way, sure the developing of the AI would be expensive as the programming will probably be insanely complex, but once the cost is spread across thousands of ships all armed with the same computers capable of supporting the AI software, then the cost becomes almost negligible.
No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.
Quote:There isnt a written rule that it has to be.
No but it prevents a ship from insta-exploding the moment you lose your shields.
And shields have the ability to regen so, you know, making shields the highest stat is kind of stupid, at least balance wise?
Besides, hull isn't "just armor", it's everything else in the ship, too, like the chassis, the cockpit, the engine.
All of these have "integrity"
Quote: it's meant to be treated as hull. maybe people would value their shields more if it were the only protection their ship has got.
See above
Quote:I'll bet there's a self-destruct sequence in ships of every intelligence faction or maybe order ships which have secret order tech that can't be captured. Why does this surprise you? If ships in disco were actually built to last then they would be stronger, and there would be severe death penalty so ppl stop dying so often.
Freelancer at its core is still a game.
I've rp-d permadeath characters, no joke, however that's already really costly.
Even back in vanilla Freelancer, it was implied people could have escape pods when their ships were destroyed. Assume someone finds you and picks you up and you have automagic insurance or something.
Or you make sure you have a spare ship, what the hey?
Quote:If I read the halo books correctly, Cortana was - "simply" a electronic replication of a human brain. The holodeck in star trek fully constructs its AI based on information of humans.
That coffee machine still requires a hell of a lot less programming due to there being less hardware involved. That requires some amount of coding too, it's not just the 0 or 1 that a switch is. It needs subroutines for a lot of things, especially the more hardware you add. The coffee machine will be expensive as hell and considering there's billions upon billions of pilots that are simply cheaper to train/hire and at the core are WILLING to die for their cause... it's not feasible.
And uh, think about what that will do to roleplay on disco. "noone is afraid of dying ever because they're not actually a living being."
Quote:Basically autopilot, navigations systems, auto aiming turrets and a whole lot of other stuff that doesn't sound too difficult (remember there's centuries of technological progression since then).
It still costs a lot to hire the team who's going to sit down and program this.
And all it takes to make it malfunction?
A single virus. Well programmed and a lot cheaper to make.
Your average (successful) pirate could probably afford one of these data packets if there's a black market hacker out there selling wholesale.
Quote:Consider how AI is achieved now
This in itself is my argument.
Just because it can be advanced doesn't automagically make it cheaper.
AI still does only what you tell it to do.
Which is why a lot of programmers have to start over from scratch with every project or their programme becomes a hideous mess.
Quote:There isnt a written rule that it has to be.
No but it prevents a ship from insta-exploding the moment you lose your shields.
My ship insta-explodes when I lose my hull. what's the difference?
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote: And shields have the ability to regen so, you know, making shields the highest stat is kind of stupid, at least balance wise?
Shields have the ability to regen. Shields, aside from the ability to regen, are otherwise inherently weaker than hull. So it sort of balances itself out.
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote: Besides, hull isn't "just armor", it's everything else in the ship, too, like the chassis, the cockpit, the engine.
All of these have "integrity"
As I mentioned in the op, hull is made volatile as its structure is the bare minimum required to hold the ship together- the actual ship itself is fragile once deshielded due to poor armor and its volatile power cores which explode under fire.
And I remember there was a previous thread where it was discussed that a better approach to futuristic defense would be shields as power core and energy technology progressed - they'd simply require more power output, while the actual alloys used for hull would be inadequate defense against an onslaught of any weapon fire. Besides, Shields don't weigh a ship down as much as a thicker hull, and while shields offer full coverage of a ship's defense, hulls have more obvious weakpoints.
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote:
Quote:I'll bet there's a self-destruct sequence in ships of every intelligence faction or maybe order ships which have secret order tech that can't be captured. Why does this surprise you? If ships in disco were actually built to last then they would be stronger, and there would be severe death penalty so ppl stop dying so often.
Freelancer at its core is still a game.
I've rp-d permadeath characters, no joke, however that's already really costly.
Even back in vanilla Freelancer, it was implied people could have escape pods when their ships were destroyed. Assume someone finds you and picks you up and you have automagic insurance or something.
Or you make sure you have a spare ship, what the hey?
Therefore. You just further prove my point. Think of the tens of player caps that get destroyed in every pvp skirmish, the government can no more afford that as it can afford this concept mentioned here. How do you think they keep "spare ships" so cheap so that they can continue their warmongering every single day, and sometimes even afford to lose a few npc caps because it decided to hug a planet - obviously not by designing ships to last.
Also, in the intelligence faction context, sure losing a ship is costly but allowing the ship to be captured may be even costlier.
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote: That requires some amount of coding too, it's not just the 0 or 1 that a switch is.
It needs subroutines for a lot of things, especially the more hardware you add. The coffee machine will be expensive as hell
It will be unless it is mass produced. If GTA5 was written for only you, then you'd have to pay the-what-billions? millions? to make the game? but spread your cost on all the coffee machines you will ever produce, and the coffee machine will only be as expensive as its hardware, OEM AI, plus the profit the manufacturer wants to make.
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote: and considering there's billions upon billions of pilots that are simply cheaper to train/hire and at the core are WILLING to die for their cause... it's not feasible.
As I clearly state, factions that have a shortage of pilots/ or for pilots that a faction doesnt want to/cannot afford to lose
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote: And uh, think about what that will do to roleplay on disco. "noone is afraid of dying ever because they're not actually a living being."
I'm not the one who suggested AI controlled ships all around, as the WWII style dogfighting in disco suggests AI has no place in a sirian's heart.
And have you been hibernating for the past year or so? Because the current rp is - "nobody is afraid of dying because they're not carrying anything expensive and they can just respawn after 2 hours"
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote: It still costs a lot to hire the team who's going to sit down and program this.
A single virus. Well programmed and a lot cheaper to make.
Ppl who will program this: Spacesoft Fat Cat software company/ Space Apple/ Certain Lane Hackers
How do they do it? In the future we have the basic programmer AI. We describe to the programmer AI what we want from it, and it builds the software for you.
And I think we can all agree that a good way to not infect your space computer with virus is to not connect it to the neural nets, and only upload updated data from trusted sources, and use an antivirus.
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote: Just because it can be advanced doesn't automagically make it cheaper.
AI still does only what you tell it to do.
Which is why a lot of programmers have to start over from scratch with every project or their programme becomes a hideous mess.
see above on why AI cost is not an issue.
AI can be made to respond to stimuli the way humans do- just requires ridiculous amounts of effort.
Also if you properly document your code then it will not become so much of a mess.
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote: tl;dr
Do you even script?
That is just missing the point of the op, which may I remind everyone is about this new ship class I'm suggesting, and has little relevance to AI
No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.
No, you just keep changing points whenever I give you something sensible.
why do I say this?
Quote:Shields have the ability to regen. Shields, aside from the ability to regen, are otherwise inherently weaker than hull. So it sort of balances itself out.
Exactly what I said, unfortunately....
Quote:as its structure is the bare minimum required to hold the ship together
You do realize that people would just have to load up a single bomber with EMP weapons only and you would die in a second?
Because your hull would be so weak it would die from the near-zero hull strength.
Besides, lore-wise, there isn't a shield technology powerful enough to make up for a lack of hull.
And I highly doubt the devs will include it.
Quote:GTA5
This is not an AI.
This is a series of scripted patterns where, given enough time, everything will repeat itself.
It is a varied program, perhaps, but it is not and artificial intelligence.
Keyword here is "intelligence".
I believe I've exhausted any will to try and discuss this.
We're getting nowhere.
No, you just keep changing points whenever I give you something sensible.
why do I say this?
Quote:Shields have the ability to regen. Shields, aside from the ability to regen, are otherwise inherently weaker than hull. So it sort of balances itself out.
Exactly what I said, unfortunately....
Quote:as its structure is the bare minimum required to hold the ship together
You do realize that people would just have to load up a single bomber with EMP weapons only and you would die in a second?
Because your hull would be so weak it would die from the near-zero hull strength.
Then 1) avoid getting shot at by emp - the ship is designed to outrun, 2) use special shields designed to somehow counter EMP
(10-10-2013, 08:22 PM)Dratai Wrote: Besides, lore-wise, there isn't a shield technology powerful enough to make up for a lack of hull.
And I highly doubt the devs will include it.
Just a concept. You do understand that I have little weight on the server and game, that the devs don't have to do what I say, right? All I'm offering are suggestions. Suggestions that may or may not work if implemented and used properly.
(10-10-2013, 08:22 PM)Dratai Wrote:
Quote:GTA5
This is not an AI.
This is a series of scripted patterns where, given enough time, everything will repeat itself.
It is a varied program, perhaps, but it is not and artificial intelligence.
You missed my point entirely - when I mentioned GTA5, the point wasn't the npcs inside GTA5 and how they're AI.
I was merely stating that if AI is (albeit highly sophisticated) software, then while developing it costs money but actual distribution of the software costs close to nothing, and the profit from selling the AI software will eventually cover the development cost, may I remind you was in response to your
(10-10-2013, 06:20 PM)Dratai Wrote: It still costs a lot to hire the team who's going to sit down and program this.
A single virus. Well programmed and a lot cheaper to make.
And the virus argument is just silly- so what we just stop using the wonderful programs computers offer all together just because viruses? Have you ever heard of this thing called "antivirus"? It's not 100% effective, but it helps.
(10-10-2013, 08:22 PM)Dratai Wrote: No, you just keep changing points whenever I give you something sensible.
Quote:Shields have the ability to regen. Shields, aside from the ability to regen, are otherwise inherently weaker than hull. So it sort of balances itself out.
Exactly what I said, unfortunately....
Quote:as its structure is the bare minimum required to hold the ship together
You do realize that people would just have to load up a single bomber with EMP weapons only and you would die in a second?
Because your hull would be so weak it would die from the near-zero hull strength.
When I said that shields are inherently weaker than hull, what I meant was- in current Disco context, where every ship has to be coated under thick slabs of armor. It doesn't contradict my new ship class as it'd just be the first ship class to rely more on shields than on hull. And it could also be the first cruiser-sized ship class to mount BS shields, since it has the capacity to do so what with all the freed up space from the no longer needed crew quarters and thick armor.
Yes we are getting nowhere. The fundemental difference between me and you is that I'm here for discussion, you're here for argument. I'm here to make an idea work - possibly through a comprimise, you're here to bash new ideas - until people stop suggesting anything. You're a troll (regardless of who Coin's reply was referring to). Take your trolling to flood and friggin stay there.
No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.
Quote:And the virus argument is just silly- so what we just stop using the wonderful programs computers offer all together just because viruses? Have you ever heard of this thing called "antivirus"? It's not 100% effective, but it helps.
You clearly just don't know how cyber warfare works.
Quote:Then 1) avoid getting shot at by emp - the ship is designed to outrun, 2) use special shields designed to somehow counter EMP
This is balanced, how?
EMP guns in freelancer are specifically designed to tear down shields.
Quote: the point wasn't the npcs inside GTA5 and how they're AI
In other words.
You have no idea what an AI is.
AI is distinctly different from a scripted programme.
AI might be "highly sophisticated software" but the way that software functions is distinctly different from a game.
The Director AI from left 4 dead is a task-specific AI because it -adapts- to the flow of the game.
Albeit in a very restricted manner.
GTA5 is a bunch of predetermined sequences, of which most of them are on repeat.
It does not "think" as such in the same sense the l4d AI does.
And that AI thinks in a very, very limited scale.
An intelligent warship is ridiculously expensive.
BESIDES THERE IS ALREADY AN ID/FACTION FOR THIS.
THAT WOULD BE THE AI ID AND THE AI CRUISER PUT INTO CONTEXT.
