Quote:100% or they're innocent. We had to prove absolutely convincingly that the player had cheated and we had to submit our evidence to the community, otherwise nobody would have paid a blind bit of attention to our decisions.
No.
It is nearly impossible to screen 100 % and it would allow all these players who love to play at the edges and get away with it to get away with it indefinitely. That's not in the best interest of the community.
"Reasonable suspicion of someone breaking the rules" or "well-founded doubt about someone playing fairly" should be imo enough to intervene from Admin side.
This game would be a better place if more people got told earlier that what they are doing is not alright. Letting them get away with clever breaking the rules by abusing their advantage of "innocent until proven guilty" is the wrong way to go in my opinion.
(11-08-2013, 03:26 PM)Vigilia.Procuratio Wrote: What I'm saying, Xelon, is that if I strongly felt that I had been hard done-by and I made my case clear, requested an explanation, was not happy with the explanation and then completely ignored thereafter, I would be very annoyed. That is to assume that I'm truly innocent, of course. I would want to know precisely how the Administrators came to their decision and if they neglected to disclose their evidence then the sanction would quite clearly be illegitimate. Not that any of this involves me being sanctioned, I just see a big problem here.
As I said, you can request the evidence to be sent via PM, most cases are being handled over PM if it's a more delicate/complicated matter.
Spaming the Sanction Thread is something we don't really like. PM is much more efficient.
Just because we close the Thread doesn't mean we ignore you.
So what you're saying is that if there's a slight possibility somebody's innocent, they should instead be sanctioned because of the greater chance that they're guilty? If the accused comes forward proclaiming that very slight chance of innocence then it must be eliminated. Simply saying "No, you're wrong" just isn't good enough; proof must be provided.
I think the Administrators will know exactly which case I'm referring to here and I still have no idea as to what the poor sod has been done for. Either he hasn't told the full story or the staff have not told us what actually happened. All we see are references to the rule in question and nothing as to what the player actually did to breach that rule. This happens a lot.
I don't want to know what profanity somebody wrote, I don't want to know what cheat somebody might have abused, but I do want to know what somebody has done wrong when there is quite clearly a serious lack of evidence to prove their guilt.
[EDIT] Sorry Xelon, missed your reply there.
I think my main point here is that the community in general is left in the lurch. I just don't know what somebody's actually done half of the time so I don't know whether to trust the decision and not the offender, or vice-versa.
I once avoided sanction because I could prove, after the fact, that it was not me.
I also have had people sanctioned for legit reasons only.
I fail to see the issue with the current system as it is, at least for what we have.
I think the reason it is kept private and only viewable to Related parties is because, frankly speaking, it's none of your business.
If I have beef with player X, player Y gets to know why that results in a sanction.
Player Z doesn't need to know why unless he was involved in the issue at hand.
It prevents a LOT of inter-community/metagaming drama.
Especially if the person who filed the report doesn't want repercussions for it/to remain anonymous.
The Sanction threads are there to make the victim of the sanction aware of the Sanction and give him a possibility to reply.
They're not there for the general Community to amuse themself, we don't disclose Evidence to the wider Community because we wanto protect the person that filled the sanction and also the person receiving the Sanction to an extend.
All that will happen when we disclose the evidence to everybody is that people say:
This sanction was in no way harsh enough, redo it, justice hasn't been served!
or
You are out of your mind you pricks, all he did was oorp stuff and you hit him this hard!?
We don't want that especially seeing that some people won't have qualms going after the people ingame to make their live miserable there.
in general, yes - the sanctions should be more structured and a lot more transparent. there should also be room for revisions in case a decision was made on just barely enough evidence.
but why should there be more transparency?
mostly because a sanction must be an educational experience, not only for the player that got sanctioned but also for others. right now, no one really "learns" from the disco sanctions other than "better run fraps and litter your harddrive with terabytes of garbage non stop" cause you may need to prove that you have been innocent.
i cannot see how it is a bad thing that there should be more transparency in sanctions. the net result is that we all learn from it. the non sanctioned ones learn from the actual violations and where the nuances of interpreting the rules are. the admins learn from drawing a line. ( it helps to formulate a decision, it makes it clearer for the decision making person, too )
the community learns from CLEAR precidents - instead of vague sanction notices that can be interpreted this way or that - and may or may not lead to reports and expectations based on those.
it is more work for the admins to write it down, but it sure helps to compare violations to past violations of a similar caliber - and in time - everyone learns.
Sorry, but what's the problem with people offering their feedback? If we can't do that then it's very one-sided. That's a bit like voting for your chosen representative of the local constituency and never being able to communicate with them.
For what it's worth, I was actually a direct witness in a relevant case and I have had no response regarding my statement. I am in the same unofficial faction as the sanctioned player too, so it most certainly is of my concern. All I have seen are two images which do not justify the extreme punishment delivered for somebody sitting on a station for an hour.
In all honesty, the 100% rule doesn't need to apply. People just need to provide stronger evidence to a rule violation instead of 1-2 images, and the admins could just as easily review them, get a word or two in with both people involved to get a written submission of what happened, (which is already included by the person filing the report) before making a decision. Then, with extra evidence, they can vote weather the violation happened, and if a sanction is justified or not.
Just a question, Vendetta.
If the pictures are valid and clear enough on what happened, what does it matter if there are more pictures or less?
It just creates more work for players. At least the way I see it.
(11-08-2013, 03:58 PM)Jinx Wrote: in general, yes - the sanctions should be more structured and a lot more transparent. there should also be room for revisions in case a decision was made on just barely enough evidence.
For instance. I get reported in one of the latest threads for staying in a system after death with terrible evidence when I am clearly innocent. What do the admins? They lock the thread. So now, I not only lose money but my reputation on the server looking like a rule breaker. This is not good for me nor the factions I play for. Seriously? I know admins have a ton of work to do. Why close threads with evidence that is not sufficient and up for debate? I'm not happy at all.