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(12-14-2013, 08:42 PM)Miaou Wrote:
(12-14-2013, 08:26 PM)Achille Wrote: Does anyone have any idea why the Normans initially attempted to go independent in the first place? What alienated them from the crown/kingdom, a mere desire for autonomy or an ideological separation?
(12-14-2013, 06:33 PM)Miaou Wrote: While Gallia wanted revenge for being left behind, the Separatists didn't care much and just wanted to live in peace.
But with the way Gallia are going around with no mercy, smashing the hell out of Bretonia, if Bretonia said Give us a break, we want to live in peace Gallia will simply stick its two fingers at Bretonia and carry on smashing up Breotnia. There must of been a reason
(12-14-2013, 08:26 PM)Achille Wrote: Does anyone have any idea why the Normans initially attempted to go independent in the first place? What alienated them from the crown/kingdom, a mere desire for autonomy or an ideological separation?
(12-14-2013, 06:33 PM)Miaou Wrote: While Gallia wanted revenge for being left behind, the Separatists didn't care much and just wanted to live in peace.
It's helpful, but really doesn't seem like a sufficient justification for a multiple century long war of attrition from a house essentially alien to violence other than that delivered by the odd pirate encounter - there must be an additional factor at play. Puristic pacifism cannot alone permit such confliction.
The hypothetical Normandy system was (apparently) as mineral rich as its neighbouring Maine, but is suggested to be approaching Stuttgart in fertility, further implying that the Normandy region is possessive of a degree of resource autonomy (to the point where "warships" of Norman origin are alluded to, inferring a significant resource accretion). Remember, the Normans also detest GMS - possible historical reasons, such as the Blood dragons with Samura or the Hessians with Kruger?
The answer should prove more profound.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
(12-14-2013, 08:26 PM)Achille Wrote: Does anyone have any idea why the Normans initially attempted to go independent in the first place? What alienated them from the crown/kingdom, a mere desire for autonomy or an ideological separation?
(12-14-2013, 06:33 PM)Miaou Wrote: While Gallia wanted revenge for being left behind, the Separatists didn't care much and just wanted to live in peace.
It's helpful, but really doesn't seem like a sufficient justification for a multiple century long war of attrition from a house essentially alien to violence other than that delivered by the odd pirate encounter - there must be an additional factor at play. Puristic pacifism cannot alone permit such confliction.
The hypothetical Normandy system was (apparently) as mineral rich as its neighbouring Maine, but is suggested to be approaching Stuttgart in fertility, further implying that the Normandy region is possessive of a degree of resource autonomy (to the point where "warships" of Norman origin are alluded to, inferring a significant resource accretion). Remember, the Normans also detest GMS - possible historical reasons, such as the Blood dragons with Samura or the Hessians with Kruger?
The answer should prove more profound.
What I bring forth today are only assumptions, opinions and suppositions.
The reasons for the desire of independence could be many.
First, as mentioned back then by Miaou, it could be differences in external policy ideologies.
Now... let's take a moment and see how Gallia is an absolutist monarchy, and how that is the perfect environment for the nobility to pursue a variety of political debaucheries ( more exactly put, political intrigues ).
Normandy would be the by product of a noble assessing too much power in order to be content under the feet of DeFrance any longer and thus, he charged for independence, assured that he is better off as the king of his own demesne and not serving for another one.
Other possibility could be a different incarnation of the Council, one of the differences being that this one was successful. You don't need to hate the monarchy to have the desire to force a constitution and a change of government. Constitutional Monarchies can happen
Third assumption: Nomads may have toyed a bit with Normandy, infecting some key people and leading to such radical changes in politics?
And there might be more... but these just came in my mind.
aw and...
Quote:It's helpful, but really doesn't seem like a sufficient justification for a multiple century long war of attrition from a house essentially alien to violence other than that delivered by the odd pirate encounter - there must be an additional factor at play. Puristic pacifism cannot alone permit such confliction.
This argument would have retained, by my opinion, 100% validity if Gallia wouldn't have planned the assault on Sirius and instead, made it spontaneously. But I think it's proven fact that the Gallic Assault on Sirius and the entire punitive war, and the vengeance thingie was planned since years ago ( decades, centuries, whateves )
The Normandy may have disagreed with these plans since the day 1 they were forged, leading to the idea that puristic pacifism could indeed permit such confliction. Perhaps they thought that vengeance would be unnecessary, and that it would bring more suffering above Gallia than profit?
(08-10-2015, 07:03 PM)Antonio- Wrote: King Eduard is the greatest
This might tie back to Normandy in an interesting way, though I think this information may have been retconned out of the mod. Gallic Artifacts do not exist anymore from what I can tell.
Levroux Base:
Levroux is an isolated base of Brigands that was built circa 500 AGS. It is located close to one of the few entries into the separatist worlds of Gallia. While the trade between the separatist factions and Gallic native factions remains limited, Levroux is one of the few places where an extremely rare commodity can be purchased: Gallic Artifacts. Peculiar artifacts of unknown origin are found in a number of remote locations of Gallia, most of them located in the rim systems close to the separatists' area of influence.
Gallic Artifacts:
Gallic Artifacts are peculiar entities that are rumored to originate from remote parts of Gallia. They have nothing in common with Nomad artifacts found in other parts of Sirius, and it is likely that they originate from another ancient alien civilization. None of the known artifacts are active, and those available on the black market of Gallia are extremely expensive. A strict embargo on those items exists in Gallia, and the Gallic government is denying even the fact that the artifacts exist, with Navy and Police ordered to use deadly force on any unauthorised carriers. However, some fortunate Sirius traders have been able to acquire small portions of those items, hoping that researchers from Sirius would one day discover their true value and offer millions to get a single one. Yet, trading those artifacts is risky, since unwary buyers are usually offered fake items. Telling a fake from a real Gallic Artifact is easy, but even in Gallia few people are trusted to possess and trade those items, and finding such person is a challenge for an outsider.
I'd guess that Normandy had some control of or at least the range to attack all of Maine and perhaps further, but the line was pushed back from Le Mans to Mayenne and then the Normandy gate itself at which point the surrender negotiations took place. While the war was raging, they cooperated with some GRP and the Unione Corse (those were mentioned in infocards, could be others) and I guess there would be some who know about it and/or were descended from those who did.
The Royalist Gallia that remains today "won", and the Normandy rebels chose isolation rather than total annihilation (which was in the Royalists' favour, since it didn't cost them further losses). There would still be some military force on the other side of the gate but nothing to match the GRN these days (I doubt even Igiss had plans for another 10 systems full of resources, seems more to be one or two at most).
The Nogent-le-Rotroi battlegroup is ready to defend Maine from an initial attack force, and Segre is poised to completely destroy the gate to prevent escape or reinforcements. Doesn't seem likely that Normandy would try anything, given there has been little contact between the two sides and no hostility for about 200 years. Think of it like the Armistice Station in Battlestar Galactica.
I'm not sure what your plans are here, but there's absolutely no way for any contact between Normandy and Gallia without the GRN knowing about it. You could RP as supporting their ideas but they're not coming back, and no-one's getting through that wall of GRN steel any time soon.
EDIT: And yeah kikatsu, Gallic Artifacts have been retconned (I think they are now the Hogosha's "Sorted Artifacts").
If anything, the Normandy people disliked the Royalist. It's understandable as the Crown has had multiple insane/mad rulers. It got to the point were war started and then an awkward cold war after the Normandy fell back.
From what I was told from snippets of stuff Igiss/Dab has said, they were generally the "good" guys in this. Royalist were driven by anger and revenge, Normandy wanted to have it stop. Too bad Gallia won.
In truth, a mod based solely on Gallia and the first/second war would be really interesting. But sadly it was thrown into Disco. Ah well.
There is also a second Sealed Jump Gate in Lorraine. (And Lorraine is quite far away from Maine)
Another one used to be in Auvergne but it seems it was deleted with 4.87 for some (or no) reason.
(12-14-2013, 10:17 PM)SummerMcLovin Wrote: I'll drop my understanding of it here.
I'd guess that Normandy had some control of or at least the range to attack all of Maine and perhaps further, but the line was pushed back from Le Mans to Mayenne and then the Normandy gate itself at which point the surrender negotiations took place. While the war was raging, they cooperated with some GRP and the Unione Corse (those were mentioned in infocards, could be others) and I guess there would be some who know about it and/or were descended from those who did.
The Royalist Gallia that remains today "won", and the Normandy rebels chose isolation rather than total annihilation (which was in the Royalists' favour, since it didn't cost them further losses). There would still be some military force on the other side of the gate but nothing to match the GRN these days (I doubt even Igiss had plans for another 10 systems full of resources, seems more to be one or two at most).
The Nogent-le-Rotroi battlegroup is ready to defend Maine from an initial attack force, and Segre is poised to completely destroy the gate to prevent escape or reinforcements. Doesn't seem likely that Normandy would try anything, given there has been little contact between the two sides and no hostility for about 200 years. Think of it like the Armistice Station in Battlestar Galactica.
I'm not sure what your plans are here, but there's absolutely no way for any contact between Normandy and Gallia without the GRN knowing about it. You could RP as supporting their ideas but they're not coming back, and no-one's getting through that wall of GRN steel any time soon.
EDIT: And yeah kikatsu, Gallic Artifacts have been retconned (I think they are now the Hogosha's "Sorted Artifacts").
Summer, permit me to correct you slightly using a few (well, all of the present) infocards (I'm not saying I'm entirely right here either)...
The Normans successfully managed to reach into Maine, true, and succeeded in desolating Mayenne to an extent, mounting a ground invasion and bombarding the GMS minesites after the land invasions failed. The threat of further troop movement was considered so significant that the corporations pulled themselves out, effectively ruining Maine's economy for a significant time.
A battle comparable to that between the GRN and the BAF broke out for Mayenne's surface twice, both times Normandy landing considerable ground forces on the planet's surface. Both times the Normans were repelled, due to the intolerably hostile weather conditions across Mayenne that the Normans proved unprepared for. None the less, the Normans succeeded in maintaining total air and space superiority over the planet for at least two years (between 505-507 AGS).
At the height of the invasion, the Norman Region forces (it's not entirely clear as to how many systems the Normans possessed; if it was a singular system or a chain of three - there is evidence that the Normans possess systems connected to both Auvergne, Touraine and Orleanais by jump holes minimum, cut off beyond the Normandy gate), succeeded in reaching in as far as Meyenne, but chose to move their fleet no further although it certainly appears they possessed the capability (or at least the GRN appears to suppose so). Tactically however, it appears the Normans considered it preferable to range strikes against key economic installations across Maine, most notably the aged GMS station which Chateau-Gontier Freeport is constructed from the remnants of - strikes which mostly met with success.
I'd disagree with Summer about the Normans successfully reaching beyond Maine - there's little mention of Normandy encroachment in other systems, and Normandy never actually attempted a dedicated strike on planet Le Mans (assumedly, the GRN was too well consolidated there to necessitate the risk). Fighting strongly for the rest of the war appeared to be mostly upon the Gallic side of the lines, and the Normans (at least in Maine) drew their assets back to the area of the jumpgate.
After multiple generations of conflict, neither side actually achieved any strategic progression beyond this point. We can only assume that the various choke points between the Royalist-held core worlds and whatever Normandy-held space proves existent proved suicidal to cross and/or impossible to hold for any duration.
As to the tactics utilised by the Normans, there is evidence to suggest either of two possibilities. Either the Normans succeeded in fielding comparable fleet assets to the GRN ship-for-ship for two centuries (likely due to Normandy's considerable planetary bombardment capabilities, the number of craft they were suggested to field, but also unlikely due the pure scale of the GRN and the maintenance such a fleet would incur), or the Normans simply proved superior strategists, remains an illusive detail.
Regarding the treaty... according to GRN and GRP infocards and particular bar room rumours, the agreement appears to have been mutually struck - both parties sealed the gates at both ends (excepting, now that I've found the correct card, the rare, minor freighter). Smuggling runs into Normandy appear to exist - although the exact nature of the commodity's exchanged remains illusive.
As for the possibility of the Normans returning, well, the GRN certainly appear to conclude the possibility, as do the GRP. Do not forget, a rough 45% of planet Mayenne's permanent residents are actually members of the fifty-thousand strong permanent Royal Marine detachment assigned to the surface, a second line of defence against a possible Norman reclamation of Maine. Remember, the battleship presently defending the gate is a replacement for an earlier rear-guard warship, so the GRN must certainly regard the threat as sufficient to necessitate added defensive bolstering. Rumours taken from the GRP hint at "trouble" brewing on Mayenne and the possibility of sedition without directly implicating the Normans, whilst the miners on Mayenne appear as aware of the Norman threat as IMG miners on Falkland are aware of the Outcasts.
To assure Summer and anybody else here - this thread isn't an attempt to add Normandy Region systems into the Discovery Mod, merely a work of field research. Apologies if we seem close to our chests.
Edit:
If the Norman Separatist's endgame was to secure independence for the "Norman Regions", then they could be considered to have won the First Gallic War resoundingly, with greater success than the Council Rebellion in the second. If the goal of the Normans was actually take command of the state, then they have failed miserably.
It's probably the Normans regard themselves as the victors as much as the GRN do. Remember both sides are almost entirely isolated, if not unaware of each other at the present day.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
I believe no one really won. It was a civil war where a simple split occurred and no one was happy at the end. Well, I guess the Normandy folks are happier but that's not really the point.
(12-15-2013, 04:06 AM)Miaou Wrote: I believe no one really won. It was a civil war where a simple split occurred and no one was happy at the end. Well, I guess the Normandy folks are happier but that's not really the point.
This is entirely correct. The Royalists certainly aimed to reclaim Normandy, and in that they failed, as in much the same way the Normans attempted to blast their way through the Gallic Core Worlds - they failed in much the same sense, never actually holding Maine.
However, you could say that the loss for the GRN especially was lessened somewhat by the fact that the Royalists gleaned the experience and munitions of over two centuries of sustained militaristic development - to the point where Gallic military technology and numerical capability overshadows that of Sirian houses and actually permitted the Alliance Revenge Concept to be physically viable. In many ways the Normans are responsible for the Revenge Concept's success, if indirectly.
Ed Wrote:Now... let's take a moment and see how Gallia is an absolutist monarchy, and how that is the perfect environment for the nobility to pursue a variety of political debaucheries ( more exactly put, political intrigues ).
Normandy would be the by product of a noble assessing too much power in order to be content under the feet of DeFrance any longer and thus, he charged for independence, assured that he is better off as the king of his own demesne and not serving for another one.
Other possibility could be a different incarnation of the Council, one of the differences being that this one was successful. You don't need to hate the monarchy to have the desire to force a constitution and a change of government. Constitutional Monarchies can happen
How Normandy was governed or indeed the particular nature of the Norman culture appears unclear, but if we consider the GRN, GMS and GRP infocards as a source of accurate information, we can raise the following conjectures:
1) The Normans did not consider themselves constituent elements of the Gallic body - self-styled Normans instead of Gauls, whilst the Council (somebody from Council correct me if I'm wrong) consider themselves to be Gallics still. If this distinction arose pre-conflict and helped contribute towards the secession of the Normandy Region, or arose as a result of the nearly three hundred year long war, is slightly uncertain.
2) The Gallics appeared to regard the Normans as equal enemies rather than being subject to the Alliance Revenge Concept, as people if not in militaristic capacity.
3) The Normans did share a degree of mutual collaboration with the fledgling Council movement, but it appears that their relationship was mostly cautious rather than close, united via common opposition.
4) The Normans are willing to engage cooperate ships and stations (unlike the Council), but avoid firing upon escape pods (unlike the Maquis).
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)