Zoners

[Thyrzul]

Let me put it to you that most people who try to play here think they are signing up for play style Nr 1, and very few for playstyle Nr 2. The people who adhere to style 2 probably wouldnt believe in this play style either if roles were reversed, and if they were not the ones controlling, but the ones being controlled.

That is because most people getting on the internet tend to think they can escape all the crapload of responsibilities associated with being a member of a community, but unfortunately for them, communities are not bound to RL, they happen on the internet too. Just like this one.

In a community your autonomy is restricted, because there are others around you as well, so while being alone has no responsibilities towards others, being in a community does. And along with the responsibilities, there are rules as well, to keep the community running smoothly, without which this whole would end up in chaos pretty fast. I assume such rules are which picking the eyes of new guys like the most of players signing up for play style Nr 1. They like all the rewards of the freedom of storytelling and RP-ing and the idea of exploiting their own creativity to it's full extend, and then back with distaste when facing the boundaries.

DiscoGC is also a community with it's own written and unwritten rules as well as with it's hierarchy, in which your place is determined by your relation towards the rest, by your level of insight into how the whole works, by how well you can get along with others.

I am in favor of playstile Nr 2, and has been on both sides of it. I started as a new guy a bit more than two years ago, and I've been on the controlled side, because that's where I had to be for a decent start. I wanted to integrate into the community, and for that, I had to learn, I had to let myself being taught. That involved the criticism of what I did, be it negative or positive, many would consider this being controlled, yes.

But slowly I've learnt said written and unwritten rules, and knew how to get involved in the life of the community. Adapting to the boundaries of this community did not harm my creativity in any way, just made me clear how restricted I exactly am. Now I follow what I've learnt so far and what I'm constantly learning, and trying to forward it, many would consider this controlling, yes.

I believe this is something all the "fresh new titans" and "I-gonna-change-the-world youngsters" need to learn sooner or later, because a method of adaption like this into a community can help much in real life as well.

The issue here isn't that there is no room for Zoners to conquer a system for themselves, but that Zoners are not really meant for this. The moment they would form a house for themselves, they would become the very thing they initally escaped from. Those who doesn't want to be controlled will not find their home in a community huge enough to collapse without control.

You can escape communities all you want, but over a certain size every one of them will require a hierarchy to function efficiently. If you are disstatisfied with hierarchies, choose a community small enough to fit your taste.

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[lIceColon]

The issue here isn't that there is no room for Zoners to conquer a system for themselves, but that Zoners are not really meant for this. The moment they would form a house for themselves, they would become the very thing they initally escaped from.

Makes a great didactic tale, sounds like something an actual Zoner would say but not a video game player.

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No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.

[Haste]

Roleplay? You know, come up with a purpose for your character that isn't "engagebugen all red i c"?

And here we go again, when all attempts at rational argumentation fail, accuse the other side of being bad at RP and just wanting to shoot and destroy all they see.

That's not what I said. I'm simply replying to Trogdor more or less stating that besides diplomacy and trading, Zoners have only one other option left to keep the faction interesting. The option sounds kind of like this: "Pew Pew Pew Pew".

So yeah. I'm not claiming anyone is good or bad at roleplay, I'm simply saying that someone who can't come up with anything for a Zoner to do that isn't "Diplomacy, Trading or Shooting" should consider joining a different faction. Zoner gameplay, aside of trading, is simply roleplay. Not shooting (unless it's in self defense or in defense of a base - surprisingly enough, exactly what the ID says).

Be it the diplomacy mentioned above, or for example, roleplaying out a researcher. You can be a Nomad sympathizer who attempts to convince others Nomads are in fact cuddly, furry creatures with disproportionately large eyes. Hey, maybe you secretly agree with the SCRA's ideals, and want to peacefully convince others. You can be pretty much anything with the Zoner ID. Just not an aggressive warmonger. How unfortunate.

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[Elmothehorse]

That is because most people getting on the internet tend to think they can escape all the crapload of responsibilities associated with being a member of a community, but unfortunately for them, communities are not bound to RL, they happen on the internet too. Just like this one.
In a community your autonomy is restricted, because there are others around you as well, so while being alone has no responsibilities towards others, being in a community does.

There are communities that give more freedoms, and there are those that give less freedoms, and which justify the restrictions in autonomy with a superior kind of community or society they are building.

There are those that allow pluralism and decenting voices and the freedom to freely create your own "faction", and those that say that all must integrate and yield to the one party, if they want to advance. Multi-Party democracy with right of free speech vs single party democracy and with censorship and no right of free speech.

I think a suitable examples for both kinds would be the difference of living in the USA or a "western Democracy" and living in the Soviet Union or single party "republics" or "democracies".

Towards which kind of communities are people flocking?

And along with the responsibilities, there are rules as well, to keep the community running smoothly, without which this whole would end up in chaos pretty fast. I assume such rules are which picking the eyes of new guys like the most of players signing up for play style Nr 1. They like all the rewards of the freedom of storytelling and RP-ing and the idea of exploiting their own creativity to it's full extend, and then back with distaste when facing the boundaries.

The boundaries that are being put up by people who say that zoners have to be neutral-to-everything unambitious doormats and cant create a new civiliazation because they left civilazation are not boundaries that come from rules or even vanilla lore, or logic.

These particular boundaries of "thats OORP because I say so" are put up because the people in positions of power dislike that there are other rising powers which take away activity and influence from their own little kingdoms that they have managed to become kings of.

This is how every single new "indy" group was destroyed since 4.85. Apocalype, TCG, CCCP, RNC, RNS, CGS, ZA, Punishers, and now the 5th is already begining to face the same propaganda that started the downfall of the other ones (and I'm probably forgetting some).

The official faction leaders disliked that they didnt have control over these people, and that they were creating more activity than their own slick boring and 100% mono-disco-party conform lore factions. So spin was generated, a minor event got blown out of proportion, a sh!tstorm was evoked, and the established chiefs came out crushing the newly appearing weeds, sometimes more succesfully, sometimes less.

After 3-4 years of this Disco is now in a state where the old chiefs are actually too bored with discovery to still play a lot, but are still holding on to their powers and crushing anything new that comes up, so that no one they dislike can gain influence.

Before the local chiefs establised their mini-kingdoms, there was more freedom, and that's what got the population rising until 4.85. There could be new factions (well, new back then) that were not conform to FL vanilla lore like CR, Phantoms, Reapers of Sirius, SCRA.

But now that we have kings that can decide that the activity-generating and fresh new faction which is becoming more popular than their own group of discoparty-approved goons is totally OORP, nothing new can sprout anymore.

It wouldnt be the first community that was choked to death by too many boundaries and too little freedom.

DiscoGC is also a community with it's own written and unwritten rules as well as with it's hierarchy, in which your place is determined by your relation towards the rest, by your level of insight into how the whole works, by how well you can get along with others.
I am in favor of playstile Nr 2, and has been on both sides of it. I started as a new guy a bit more than two years ago, and I've been on the controlled side, because that's where I had to be for a decent start. I wanted to integrate into the community, and for that, I had to learn, I had to let myself being taught. That involved the criticism of what I did, be it negative or positive, many would consider this being controlled, yes.
But slowly I've learnt said written and unwritten rules, and knew how to get involved in the life of the community. Adapting to the boundaries of this community did not harm my creativity in any way, just made me clear how restricted I exactly am.

The fact that you learned the boundaries and always stayed within them has certainly helped you gain a certain level of influence with those who controled you, enough that you can now also excerce a little control. If that was your goal in playing here, you have certainly achieved it.

But if your goal was not to gain control and influence over people, but simply to have some relaxing and good-natured fun and creativity together with some like-minded people, and to make the server fun and interesting, you have accomplished or contributed absolutely nothing in that respect.

Now I follow what I've learnt so far and what I'm constantly learning, and trying to forward it, many would consider this controlling, yes.
I believe this is something all the "fresh new titans" and "I-gonna-change-the-world youngsters" need to learn sooner or later, because a method of adaption like this into a community can help much in real life as well.

Thats a bit of the problem here. You are around 20 now, and you found it easy to conform to the leaders here when you started, because you assumed they were older and wiser than you, and that the people who dont confrom are "I-gonna-Change-the-world youngsters."

The truth is that the leaders that you had no problem accepting as your leaders when you started playing here are in fact reality-enstranged youngsters compared to some of the people who you are calling youngsters there.

You are wrong to assume that people who are bigshots here are bigshots in real life, or will become bigshots. I would even say the exact oposite is true, because they have spent a rather unhealthy amount of time becoming what they are here.

You will definately learn more things that are useful for "RL" in "RL" than you will learn here. The fact that you think you will learn anything useful here is already a sign that you've spent way too much time here.

The issue here isn't that there is no room for Zoners to conquer a system for themselves, but that Zoners are not really meant for this. The moment they would form a house for themselves, they would become the very thing they initally escaped from. Those who doesn't want to be controlled will not find their home in a community huge enough to collapse without control.
You can escape communities all you want, but over a certain size every one of them will require a hierarchy to function efficiently. If you are disstatisfied with hierarchies, choose a community small enough to fit your taste.

Here is your logical flaw and gap in knowledge. People who leave societies dont do it to live an unambitious life of nothingness in apathy and submission. they can do that "at home". The only ones who leave society to do that are hermits, and thats a very very small number.

The overwhelming majority of people who leave societies do it because they found societies too constraining for their dreams an ambitious. They dont leave to live alone, but to form new societies that they can shape to their own liking. And that can very much mean making themselves the head chief in charge of their own little private kingdom at the edge of no-where.

I dont know why you fail to understand it or why you werent able to figure it out yourself, or why you cant remember all the examples in history where this was exactly the case. But I'm guessing you're simply assuming that what the people in charge here say is true because they are in charge and what they say must be true. I'm also blaming the fact that you are 10 years younger than me that you may tend to think like that.

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User was banned for: I was starting to worry you weren't alive anymore, Karlotta!
Time left: (Permanent)

[Thyrzul]

There are communities that give more freedoms, and there are those that give less freedoms, and which justify the restrictions in autonomy with a superior kind of community or society they are building.

There are those that allow pluralism and decenting voices and the freedom to freely create your own "faction", and those that say that all must integrate and yield to the one party, if they want to advance. Multi-Party democracy with right of free speech vs single party democracy and with censorship and no right of free speech.

I think a suitable examples for both kinds would be the difference of living in the USA or a "western Democracy" and living in the Soviet Union or single party "republics" or "democracies".

Towards which kind of communities are people flocking?

Different people with different goals and capabilities flock to different communities. Have you found yours to flock to?

The boundaries that are being put up by people who say that zoners have to be neutral-to-everything unambitious doormats and cant create a new civiliazation because they left civilazation are not boundaries that come from rules or even vanilla lore, or logic.

Oh, indeed they do. The most basic definition of a Zoner is set in their lore and that is what I, among many others, have already told you.

These particular boundaries of "thats OORP because I say so" are put up because the people in positions of power dislike that there are other rising powers which take away activity and influence from their own little kingdoms that they have managed to become kings of.

These particular boundaries of "that's OORP because it contradicts lore/RP/whatever" are put up because if there would be no such boundaries, if there would be nothing to describe certain kinds of people, the words "Zoner" or "Junker" would lose their meanings, there would be no difference. You won't be a "Zoner" for simply calling yourself a "Zoner" and then acting like something else. That applies to any faction.

This is how every single new "indy" group was destroyed since 4.85. Apocalype, TCG, CCCP, RNC, RNS, CGS, ZA, Punishers, and now the 5th is already begining to face the same propaganda that started the downfall of the other ones (and I'm probably forgetting some).

I haven't heard what's going on with 5th (although I could have some guesses), but to look at some of the examples you gave... CCCP started as an outright socialist/communist branch of the Navy of a god damn monarchy. Where the hell is the logic in that? I heard CGS was being hated ooRP, not for their RP, rather their lack of such, but I myself had no experience with them. Recent variants of RNC and RNS got some of the legacy of CCCP, and again, they were rather disliked for their PvP behavior and the quantity (lack) of RP, not the quality of it. ZA were/are obvious warmongering zonerzonerzoners, and Punishers were a bit of more PvP than RP guys too, although I didn't really witnessed them being hated that much. Dunno about TCG, must have been ages ago.

The official faction leaders disliked that they didnt have control over these people, and that they were creating more activity than their own slick boring and 100% mono-disco-party conform lore factions. So spin was generated, a minor event got blown out of proportion, a sh!tstorm was evoked, and the established chiefs came out crushing the newly appearing weeds, sometimes more succesfully, sometimes less.

I admit I, as a faction leader, am often frustrated because of the lack of power over indies, but that got nothing to do with activity, rather than screwing up all what I've previously created. And that's what I tend to hate in fresh people, that they don't really care what was before them, they gonna now change the world no matter what. That's what I tend to hate in my own generation as well.

Imagine you are granted the freedom you want so much, but of course everybody else as well, because that would be fair, right? You can go roleplay on your own, make your faction the way you want, develop month by month, then bamm, here comes a newbie crapping all over what you did and starts to make his own faction and develop his own concept on the ashes of yours. What you have been doing for half a month already has been partially/completely destroyed in a single moment. You would be frustrated as well, wouldn't you?

Before the local chiefs establised their mini-kingdoms, there was more freedom, and that's what got the population rising until 4.85. There could be new factions (well, new back then) that were not conform to FL vanilla lore like CR, Phantoms, Reapers of Sirius, SCRA.

There is nothing forbidding you to create your own new faction, just like old times. It's just that while there are a crapload of NPC factions not having even an unofficial factions, there is a Liberty Navy having an official faction and like 3-4 unofficial factions. Suddenly there are 3 LR, 2 OC, 3-4 BD, 3 Gaian factions, most of them disappearing quickly afterwards, due to lack of interest, without said "local chiefs" having to do anything for that.

But now that we have kings that can decide that the activity-generating and fresh new faction which is becoming more popular than their own group of discoparty-approved goons is totally OORP, nothing new can sprout anymore.

It wouldnt be the first community that was choked to death by too many boundaries and too little freedom.

These and your previous paragraphs smell too much of vet-conspiracy theories and accusation of bias. If you feel you don't have the freedom you think you deserve, you are free to look for a community, which can give you what you want.

The fact that you learned the boundaries and always stayed within them has certainly helped you gain a certain level of influence with those who controled you, enough that you can now also excerce a little control. If that was your goal in playing here, you have certainly achieved it.

Indeed, learning the boundaries is not only the key of existence, but also contribution. It's called being useful and it is appreciated a lot. Considering that we were arguing about Zoner roleplay, I thought you already knew the advantages of being useful, because that's also a key feature of Zoner RP. And being useful has its perks as well.

But if your goal was not to gain control and influence over people, but simply to have some relaxing and good-natured fun and creativity together with some like-minded people, and to make the server fun and interesting, you have accomplished or contributed absolutely nothing in that respect.

The above mentioned two things, having some sort of influence and having fun and creativity with like-minded people, doesn't really exclude eachother. Besides, what do you know about my accomplishments, hm?

Thats a bit of the problem here. You are around 20 now, and you found it easy to conform to the leaders here when you started, because you assumed they were older and wiser than you, and that the people who dont confrom are "I-gonna-Change-the-world youngsters."

The truth is that the leaders that you had no problem accepting as your leaders when you started playing here are in fact reality-enstranged youngsters compared to some of the people who you are calling youngsters there.

You are wrong to assume that people who are bigshots here are bigshots in real life, or will become bigshots. I would even say the exact oposite is true, because they have spent a rather unhealthy amount of time becoming what they are here.

You will definately learn more things that are useful for "RL" in "RL" than you will learn here. The fact that you think you will learn anything useful here is already a sign that you've spent way too much time here.

Who were here for years already when I came here were indeed wiser, because they had years to gather experience about how things roll here, I don't really find anything problematic at listening to the ones with more experience. You know, those are from who you get your experience, if not on your own, but you know, it's way more safe to learn from an expert that trinitro-toluene gonna blow into your face if you ignite it with a match rather than finding it out on your own.

I never assumed that those who are bigshots here are bigshots out there as well, neither that the two would have any relevance to eachother other than mature thinking. And I'm sure RL can prepare me for RL more than anything else, but still, even here can a man learn many things. And I mean A LOT of things. About people, eachother, and that's just ooRP. The fact that you think you will never learn anything useful here is already a sign that you've spent way little amount of time here.

Here is your logical flaw and gap in knowledge. People who leave societies dont do it to live an unambitious life of nothingness in apathy and submission. they can do that "at home". The only ones who leave society to do that are hermits, and thats a very very small number.

The overwhelming majority of people who leave societies do it because they found societies too constraining for their dreams an ambitious. They dont leave to live alone, but to form new societies that they can shape to their own liking. And that can very much mean making themselves the head chief in charge of their own little private kingdom at the edge of no-where.

And what do you think, what would the rest of the Zoners do if they find out that they escaped one "head chief" just to live under an other one? Yeah, logical flaw...

EDIT: Oh, hi Karlotta!

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[Trogdor]

Yep. Pretty much everything Karlotta said.

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[Haste]

It's a conspiracy!!!!!

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[.Gypsy.]

Zoner Neutrality is one god damn fragile b*cough* well, you get it. Diplomacy is not the only thing to keep it intact. The moment you become a significant power, and a potential threat to the houses, no matter how diplomatic you are, you will lose it. Houses will no more consider you a bunch of hermits called Zoners as soon as you concentrate into one part of the space, and claim ownership over it. The moment you grow as big as e.g. Corsairs, or Outcast, said Hispanics will slaughter you down to the point they will be able to control you again while you still stay useful for them. That's one thing.

The other is that if you grow big and concentrated, such will either lead to chaos, or order. A middle state can work in small communities, but not in big ones. Chaos is obviously gonna crush you, order on the other hand will throw you on a path leading to the very same thing Zoners wanted to escape in the first place: governance.

Want conflict? Chose an other faction from the crapton out there which were designed for conflict. Zoners ain't one of them. Open conflict would crush Zoner Neutrality into tiny shards and your people would be slaughtered way before you could repair it.

Besides, in exchange for lack of offensive behavior from Zoner part as well as said Neutrality, you got basically no enemies (both Order and Core can defend you from Nomads), Sirius-wide ZoI and apart from the above, as vague lore as possible. If you can't value these things making the Zoner faction as unique as possible, why have you chosen to play them? Why can't you play them as what they are instead of altering them to fit your own needs? Said needs can be fulfilled with a dozen of other factions, there is no need to transform Zoners into just another generic pewpew faction.

This 100%... I think, its what makes them so unique, personally I really wanted to play one, even got their BS as my first large purchase, but got rid of it because I wasn't sure how to play a Zoner.

But I still like the unique roll they have, I think if they just become another house it will ruin their uniqueness.

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[Echo 7-7]

The future of Omicron-74 is somewhat separate of various peoples' misinterpretation of what it means to be a Zoner. Therefore, I'm preparing a new thread for system changes.

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There was a sig here, once.

[Trogdor]

Well... it influences where the system should be, and what should be in it.

@Haste,
Yes you're right, there are people who do a wonderful job with their 100% roleplay Zoners. They create roleplay from out of thin air, and are creative enough to think up things like research stories, without really any foil to build from, as much it simply is not defined and must simply be made up as one goes along.

But of the large number of people who play Zoner, only a few can actually pull that off. Most are either traders, or they're fighters/caps that flounder around trying to seek purpose in some sort of defense role. I want to give these people something to do, and in the process, validate the existance of our shipline so we can finally put that issue to rest, without going with the option that will cause massive outrage.

@Thryzul,
The thing is, even if you establish a system like the one I've been describing, it doesn't necessarily affect everyone else. It would be a separate npc Zoner group that is establishing this new system, and their roleplay is that they want to start something that resembles a new house. It's no different from what the NO are trying to do.
Even if the 'sairs, SCRA, whoever, raid this system for whatever reason we contrive (both like shooting Zoners, and we've just given them an excuse to do it, boosting their activity as well as ours. Bonus!), it doesn't have to affect Zoners living anywhere else if they don't want it to. They are still free to pursue their own diplomacy.

So if you still oppose this, can you please explain why this is something we shouldn't be doing? How does it potentially hurt the faction as a whole, rather than just the people who live in that area?

Again, the Zoner lore only says that they wanted to escape the existing houses. There's nothing that says they were inherently opposed to the idea of living in a community of that size.

To those who have spoken up in favor of my arguments, thanks.

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