Super Long Megapost First post working version.

[Gytrash]

Dude. The ZA lore does not count as an argument for zoner battleships here. It's more of an argument against them.

The ZA despite being a faction that I do not like having as Zoners do have a point. Freeport 7 would be a massive kick in the pants for Zoners and would start the development of War vessels. If only for defence.

If we really want to get into it, there has to be somewhere that the line is drawn between logical and fair. If the game was completely fair, it wouldn't be logical. If the game was completely logical, it wouldn't be fair. There are some aspects fairness can apply to, however that doesn't mean everything is fair. I know you've heard the life's rough line a billion types, just as many as I've heard this is just a game, it's meant to be fair line. The point is, if the balance tips too far in either direction, everyone will be displeased (More so than everyone is displeased now. Devs are good, but not please every single person good).

And Tel, the Hessians are constantly active in combat, and engaging in combat. All of 'em.
They're kind of shooty people.

And I've yet to see an answer to my question, what purpose do these ships serve now that makes everyone so against the nerfs? Because let's face it, if it's truly about the RP a person(dedicated to RP, mind you) could fly a gunless ship and be happier than a Nom in a Marduk.

So… About that Nom in a Marduk, one of the primary reasons why Zoners would have big guns. Do I have to bring the Zoners together behind the banner of “Remember Freeport 7!” It was a big thing. A station got destroyed by a new terrifying alien species. The deaths of friends galvanises the Zoners into action. Especially seeing as they share the Omicrons with them. Why wouldn’t they go full on develop defensive weapons mode? I know I sure as hell would and that’s why we would.

And that K’Hara in a Marduk? A good reason for us to keep our guns. Space is not safe if you are a Zoner. Despite our best efforts there’s still people out there that don’t like us and the Nomads are powerful and have a good presence in the Omicrons. They also have an annoying tendency to shoot when you stop to talk to them.

And regarding Tel's double edit.
That would be absolutely lovely, I'm sure, but it's not something that can happen instantly. As it is to my understanding, the Zoners are for the most part nomadic in life style. Why, then, would they have access to a ship of such immense power? There has to be logic. It may not seem fair that your things are being nerfed, but it's logical. Lore is RP, yes, but it's a development of RP, a development everyone agrees makes the mod better. If the Junkers were to, say, ask for a dreadnaught and claim it makes sense, I guarantee they'd be met with the exact same response, if not harsher (Not picking on junkers, just using an example)

And that K’Hara in a Marduk? A good reason for us to keep our guns. Space is not safe if you are a Zoner. Despite our best efforts there’s still people out there that don’t like us and the Nomads are powerful and have a good presence in the Omicrons. They also have an annoying tendency to shoot when you stop to talk to them.

You seem to be taking this as if they're completely replacing the ship. To my understanding, they're simply modifying their class and how they stand as compared to other ships. You're free to RP just as you were before.
And if I recall correctly, caps are more dangerous than transports anyways?

How does making a Colony BS class ship into a battletransport doesnt mean "replacing".No explanations till now.And what can we RP with a battletransport that was before RPed as a Colony ship?The ship was huge and very much armoured to protect their inhabitants and the domes from the Nomads that were near their doorstep,just some steps away from their settlements in Omicron Delta.The current battletransport has huge cargo,is offering no defense against any threat that might be posed.That is just a blockade who were RPing with their juggys for this long.I even know a guy who bought it to just use it as an orphanage.What do you think they get in return,a completely useless restricted battletransport,not even worth a part of the time and ingame cash they invested into RPing and buying these things.

+1 agreement on this. There are a lot of people who have been doing a lot of RP. Now there’s a lot of people selling a lot of Zoner ships. Not an optimal set of circumstances.

Have you successfully defended against a raid by battleships with only gunboats?

Yep. I've also done it with bombers too.
Contrary to popular belief, caps aren't the only ships that can kill.

I challenge you to head into o99, find a Marduk, and take it down with the bomber of your choosing. You do that and ill eat my week old socks.

Eventually you'll also find that it's not the way to acquire resources for cloaks. That reasoning as a tool for duck hunting would be null and void. You may as well eat not only those week old socks but an old hat too, good sir.

No No No. Battleships are not the only ships that can kill. Nor are they only a tool for Duck hunting. They are a preventative measure. If I have a battleship you are far less likely to attack me than if I only have a gunboat. Especially if you have a Battleship. Like the Marduks. Hell, the Corsairs have two battleships and they are just pirates.

Yep. I've also done it with bombers too.
Contrary to popular belief, caps aren't the only ships that can kill.

I challenge you to head into o99, find a Marduk, and take it down with the bomber of your choosing. You do that and ill eat my week old socks.

Alright. I'll just go gather some locals to help me shoot it, like I should be doing.

No, you are a Zoner. There are no locals in the omicrons. You have to do it alone.

* Lythrilux presents you the award for general ignorance.

He has a point actually. There aren’t all that many people online in the Omicrons. In the Omicrons no-one can hear you shout “But I’m Neutral!”

[Gytrash]

Yeah LNS guys suits for 99 much better.

Either way that mumorpuger-style battleship farming would be a thing of a past.

Nothing in this thread is to do with farming Marduks. I don’t care about that. I’ll buy them off the Order if that makes you happier. I never even use them.

Hmm, do Zoners have capable Zoner-line bombers? I forget. IIRC they have access to Rocs and Warans, but a dedicated Zoner bomber designed for defense would be cool.

There are no Zoner bombers. We have the Nephilim, the Aquilon, the corvo, the Fearless, the Whale, the conference and the Osprey. That’s it. The dromedary doesn’t really count because that’s a vanilla ship that was sold on Hacker bases and such.

this thread really is more a FYI, and especially those who have ranted or insulted before have disqualified themselves from any reasonable discussion that can be considered.

what and if some capital warships remain is up to the admins at that point. eventually the leviathan can become a typical SRP zoner ship for those zoners who just have to play a big battleship open for anyone who wishes to SRP it.

but the change is going to happen. this is not a decision made just recently - that is the outcome of a decision that has started long ago. it simply takes time to get to a consensus of how the change should happen - and the consensus was made.

we are aware that facing the actual changes opposed to eventual changes or threats of change some time ago, trigger a lot of resistance.

also this is not only about what the zoner players want. it is what any new player thinks of a faction when they come in contact with another faction. when a new player meets a zoner player in any ship - the first thing they should think is what the faction is about ( in disco terms // also yes - i even contacted the original faction dev of freelancer via 7crows to get his idea of what the original idea of zoners was )
do they see warships that are similar to any other faction? do they see transports, do they see hybrids, do they see no capital ships at all? all that determines what they think "the zoners" are. and all that makes up their mind in future interactions with the factions.

we want players to get the proper idea of the zoners - which was by the way promoted by the factions, too - of explorers, mostly peaceful dwellers who still defend themselves but who do not attack others. a faction that relies on their "friends" for serious defense - who solves conflicts diplomatically partly cause they want it, but also cause they MUST.

when it is about reimbursement - that is an admin matter, but i do believe that - for the first time in disco history - there might be a plan to compensate players due to the large scale

and it is a large scale

80 fearless ---> which will become nothing but still a freaking military grade cruisers
116 nephilim ---> which will become 116 deep space vessels
124 aquillon ---> which will become 124 large armored transports
3 leviathan ( i think its 3 now ) ---> which will become actual 3 dreadnoughts

so yea - zoners will focus more on their concept of exploration ( with transport classified RP ships ) - but they keep 2 cruisers and a gunboat - which is pretty much more than your average trading faction.
if the leviathan becomes a regular SRP capital class dreadnought, they even keep the freaking full military shipline ( any fighter, GB, CR, DE, [DN] )

unless the ppl who think their RP deserves a capital warship are afraid they won t get it.... .




but thankfully most of you ppl here think that "jinx hates the zoners so much he wants to ruin them - whine - whine" man, you have no idea - but its funny how one side thinks i favour the zoners over others too much while the other side thinks i hate them too much.

thankfully the truth is in the middle - where it belongs.

NO NO NO NO NO NO
NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN
You can’t have a poll that’s dodgy as all get out and then say “The community voted for it.” There was no clear majority. You are just powergaming here. And that’s what it is, let me quote it for you if you don’t already know what it is.

Community Rules

Not allowed on Discovery forums or server:

1.6 Metagaming* and/or powergaming** to gain a roleplay benefit for factions, groups or individuals

* Metagaming: When game information outside of what is available in a game is used to give a player an advantage in-game.
**Powergaming: When one character forces actions against another player without giving them the chance to respond, affecting and/or interfering with the other characters roleplay.

If you are saying “Here’s what’s happening. It’s going to shoot your roleplay entirely to hell and in fact retcon it out of existence. You don’t have a choice, this is what we’ve decided that’s powergaming on an extraordinarily large scale and against server rules. Of course I may have misinterpreted it but still.

as i said - the recent poll made us adjust our initial plans - and leave the cruisers and destroyers to the zoners. if you say that this is nothing - fine -

however if you refer to "no change at all" - no, why? - there are plenty of voters who voted for some kind of change - and aside from the poll - we have plenty of threads that called "foul" on zoners in the past years. should we ignore them, too - just cause ppl get upset cause change actually becomes immanent?

about the lore of the ships

we ( me included ) have tried to justify them over and over and over. - but the fact is - their existence makes little sense. now you may say "but look at faction Y, Z, B etc. their shipline makes no sense either!!!" and i say "well done, you are right - and eventually that might change, too - but current change concerns the zoners, you have to start somewhere - and as it was said, we start with the most prominent problem... and hell yea - it is a problem."

here is the original lore by the creators of the zoner ships when they were FIRST introduced to the dev team:

- conference: VIP AT mk2. freighter class with GB armor and minimal active defense ( weapons ) - a ship to "get the hell out of trouble" - but not to "make trouble"

- fearless: armored small transport, small battletransport for edgeworld freeport supply, cruiser armor, minimal active defense ( weapons )

- corvo: research ship for RPers who want to RP a mid sized ship with minimal crew. good scanners and research equipment, average protection and minimal active defense ( weapons )

- aquillon: we were all a bit surprised when igiss moved it from IMG to zoners at the time and had no idea what to do about it. so it became the only "real" zoner warship

- nephilim: battleship class colony ship. few weapons but huge hitpoints - hence it came with the most hitpoints ( up to .87 - now the marduk has more ) a ship that survives. however in the initial concept it kept its 12 turrets to be able to act as a brutal battering ram on request by the Asgard Warriors.

all in all - the zoner ships all revolve around good hitpoints and minimal defense. also - like the original order Geb, they were meant to be mostly useless in terms of trading and pvp - making them naturally rare because most ppl cannot deal with RP only ships that do not make them money or blue messages.

Leave them as they are. Or hell, just take away some guns from the Neph and call it a day. Give us the ability to police our capships and deny them to Jumpers and we have no problems any more. Of course that would be a solution that would allow us to have our RP still around while solving all the problems listed (Minus the ships not making sense in Lore part, but that’s because you only pay attention to the lore that we base our RP off. Not how the RP has evolved. Like I have said, we are working on the lore.)

The main reason that people are calling Foul is that Jumpers are abusing the Zoners neutrality. Providing a faction neutral jumpship would negate that. But you don’t want to do that. So what happens is that the Zoners get a bad rap because people want to jump everywhere with no consequences and if the Zoners have to wear those consequences then well tough luck.

I’m not exactly sure where this one is supposed to go.

this thread really is more a FYI, and especially those who have ranted or insulted before have disqualified themselves from any reasonable discussion that can be considered.

what and if some capital warships remain is up to the admins at that point. eventually the leviathan can become a typical SRP zoner ship for those zoners who just have to play a big battleship open for anyone who wishes to SRP it.

but the change is going to happen. this is not a decision made just recently - that is the outcome of a decision that has started long ago. it simply takes time to get to a consensus of how the change should happen - and the consensus was made.

we are aware that facing the actual changes opposed to eventual changes or threats of change some time ago, trigger a lot of resistance.

also this is not only about what the zoner players want. it is what any new player thinks of a faction when they come in contact with another faction. when a new player meets a zoner player in any ship - the first thing they should think is what the faction is about ( in disco terms // also yes - i even contacted the original faction dev of freelancer via 7crows to get his idea of what the original idea of zoners was )
do they see warships that are similar to any other faction? do they see transports, do they see hybrids, do they see no capital ships at all? all that determines what they think "the zoners" are. and all that makes up their mind in future interactions with the factions.

we want players to get the proper idea of the zoners - which was by the way promoted by the factions, too - of explorers, mostly peaceful dwellers who still defend themselves but who do not attack others. a faction that relies on their "friends" for serious defense - who solves conflicts diplomatically partly cause they want it, but also cause they MUST.

when it is about reimbursement - that is an admin matter, but i do believe that - for the first time in disco history - there might be a plan to compensate players due to the large scale

and it is a large scale

80 fearless ---> which will become nothing but still a freaking military grade cruisers
116 nephilim ---> which will become 116 deep space vessels
124 aquillon ---> which will become 124 large armored transports
3 leviathan ( i think its 3 now ) ---> which will become actual 3 dreadnoughts

so yea - zoners will focus more on their concept of exploration ( with transport classified RP ships ) - but they keep 2 cruisers and a gunboat - which is pretty much more than your average trading faction.
if the leviathan becomes a regular SRP capital class dreadnought, they even keep the freaking full military shipline ( any fighter, GB, CR, DE, [DN] )

unless the ppl who think their RP deserves a capital warship are afraid they won t get it.... .




but thankfully most of you ppl here think that "jinx hates the zoners so much he wants to ruin them - whine - whine" man, you have no idea - but its funny how one side thinks i favour the zoners over others too much while the other side thinks i hate them too much.

thankfully the truth is in the middle - where it belongs.

All that I can say to this is Zoners are not a trading faction. Why would you think that Zoners are a trading faction? OSI is a trading faction. That’s ⅓ of the official Zoner factions. Not all of the Zoners.
And because we cannot do procedurally generated freelancer we cannot focus on Exploration unless you start changing the mod around a lot more frequently and put more interesting anomolies in the Omicron systems. So far one of the most interesting things in the game is in Omega-3. That cool particle off in the ice cloud with no explanation.

[Gytrash]

Ok reading back since last I posted, it seems a lot of people want the old Nephy because their RP is based on it, because its a nice mobile Freeport and stuff. Now after looking at the models I actually think I'd like that biodome ship too, but not for fighting.

So...

How about you keep the old Nephy model, just make it a "Battleship" that is slower than the rest (like 40 impulse, no thrust, and like 150 cruise speed), has larger cargo, above average hull strength, and very crappy guns. Not transport crappy, but fewer mounting points than most battleships.

Maybe also change the model a bit to look like the mid-thing between a station and a ship. Like a mobile city. Bigger, bulkier, not able to enter a trade lane. Maybe all zoner ships should be really crappy to fly into tradelanes, cause they are built for purposes in space where there are no tradelanes.

If wanna keep the present Nephy as a SRP or faction flagship, sure why not. It just feels awkward to see biodomes on a ship that is specifically intended for battle.

The new Nephy model that Jinx made actually also looks good. I see no reason why that shouldn't be made into an additional ship.

But for the love of god, stop yelling and insulting everyone people.

The nephilim is never and has never been a battleship. Who told you that? Where did you find that? No official faction has roleplayed it as a battleship except for the Order who obviously modified it. The Aquilon is the battleship the Neph is the colony ship. And it is nearly impossible to get into tradelanes unless you are REALLY good at it. When I had reason to take mine through house space I mostly just flew directly from point to point. Of course it’s just as hard to fly through an asteroid field in one. It’s obvious from your posts that you’ve never flown one. Fly one and try to sue it for combat against someone of equal skill. I guarantee you’ll lose. You can’t dodge anything and you turn slower than I wake up in the morning.

Zoners who are only Zoners because of being able to fly the Nephilim and Aquillon, and will leave or stop playing Zoners if they get changed are probably not the Zoners the server will miss.

Zoners who have spent years building their RP only to have it overturned because the Admins and Devs won’t let us police the problem that they are responsible for. Because a problem that you prevent someone else fixing is your problem. are the Zoners who are likely to leave. And the server will miss them. Hell, Doc flies Nephilim, has for years, since before it even was a Nephilim. He said that he doesn’t want the change. You can’t say Doc is a bad RPer.

I just recently started playing and the largest combat-vessel I've owned is a gunboat, so I can't really comment on the pvp-balance.
That being said, I have 2 pleas:

1. Please don't change the function/description of the Nephilim too much.

The Zoners who travel into the unknown of deep space trust these ships to sustain them during long explorations that are expected to take several generations, and thus outfit the ships to be capable of light industry and hydroponic food production during the voyage. The Nephilim is also capable of making planetfall and establishing a fully autonomous colony.

Our entire company-RP is based on deep-space exploration and thus it would be devastating for us.

2. Please keep the model in some form.
Imo (and the friends I've discussed this with) it looks perfectly like an exploration-vessel with those 'garden-domes' on each side and the 'sun-deck' on the front. Ship Picture

Suggestions:
Remove some hardpoints from the ships instead of changing them entirely.
Make it inRP illegal for Zoner-caps to enter house-space at all

I only suggest this because I don't feel that one should 'complain' about ANYTHING if you don't suggest SOME solution. There are probably better and smarter ones.

Anyway, I feel the dev's should do what they see as the best solution for the community.. My logic tells me they must be doing something right since the game is alive after all these years.
I'll just say thank you for the work you put in either way.

With Gratitude
- Keioff Xanjer

This. We need some way of exploring deep space and maintaining a population out there, don’t take that away from us.

as i said - the recent poll made us adjust our initial plans - and leave the cruisers and destroyers to the zoners. if you say that this is nothing - fine -

however if you refer to "no change at all" - no, why? - there are plenty of voters who voted for some kind of change - and aside from the poll - we have plenty of threads that called "foul" on zoners in the past years. should we ignore them, too - just cause ppl get upset cause change actually becomes immanent?

about the lore of the ships

we ( me included ) have tried to justify them over and over and over. - but the fact is - their existence makes little sense. now you may say "but look at faction Y, Z, B etc. their shipline makes no sense either!!!" and i say "well done, you are right - and eventually that might change, too - but current change concerns the zoners, you have to start somewhere - and as it was said, we start with the most prominent problem... and hell yea - it is a problem."

here is the original lore by the creators of the zoner ships when they were FIRST introduced to the dev team:

- conference: VIP AT mk2. freighter class with GB armor and minimal active defense ( weapons ) - a ship to "get the hell out of trouble" - but not to "make trouble"

- fearless: armored small transport, small battletransport for edgeworld freeport supply, cruiser armor, minimal active defense ( weapons )

- corvo: research ship for RPers who want to RP a mid sized ship with minimal crew. good scanners and research equipment, average protection and minimal active defense ( weapons )

- aquillon: we were all a bit surprised when igiss moved it from IMG to zoners at the time and had no idea what to do about it. so it became the only "real" zoner warship

- nephilim: battleship class colony ship. few weapons but huge hitpoints - hence it came with the most hitpoints ( up to .87 - now the marduk has more ) a ship that survives. however in the initial concept it kept its 12 turrets to be able to act as a brutal battering ram on request by the Asgard Warriors.

all in all - the zoner ships all revolve around good hitpoints and minimal defense. also - like the original order Geb, they were meant to be mostly useless in terms of trading and pvp - making them naturally rare because most ppl cannot deal with RP only ships that do not make them money or blue messages.

They make no sense. Yes. But they are an established lack of sense.


I believe you would have got exactly what you wanted Jinx if you just started a dialogue with the Phoenix, TAZ and OSI leaders first; hell, all the zoners actually. Persuading people of your intentions before making the final implementation committal is a much more honourable, democratic, agreeable method of proceeding about the process.

I have never, ever, played a Zoner cap. This is because the Zoner group I am a member of does not have the shipyards to field Zoner capitals. But Phoenix and TAZ? Well, they do. Thus a degree of Rp rights lie with them.


This is older members taking on the roles of wizened sages, suggesting that all us young upstarts "cannot see the bigger picture". If you have a join date post 2010 you clearly do not understand how this server operates, how the fluid, Zoner roleplay that changes from week to week operates, because you lack a vintage label.

Do what is healthy for the mod, and for the Zoners you have nursed, Jinx. As aforementioned in this thread.

This is wrong. It’s not people with a join date before 2010 vs those who came after. There are people from both on both sides of the argument. What this is about is Devs saying “Let’s destroy a whole bunch of established lore because people are QQing” and the Zoners saying “Let us fix the problem causing the QQ before initiating a wave to destroy our RP!” and the devs saying back “That’s against policy. So we’ll destroy your RP.”

And I have to say, Jinx would never have gotten what he wanted. It’s actually been stated that he opened communications channels to Zoner leaders and they said no.

Would the Jinkusu be able to fend off a cruiser at least? You mention these things would be durable and have a long range, so I'd imagine they'd have adequate fire to fend off something a little bigger than a gunboat.

We have to remember that line between roleplay and the playerbase. We want to kill things. A lot of people deny this drive for PVP, but most of the time Connecticut has a higher population than any other system.

Zoners getting cocky about being neutral doesn't sound like roleplay. Zoners would know space is a dangerous place and would arm their vessels to plan for the craziest of stuff with them being on the fringe and all.

If you do the transports, at least make them somewhat tough. Armor and whatnot is awesome, but you just don't have the speed to run away in time. House transports are lightly armed because people are nearby.

In space, no one can hear you "Neutral!"

+1 this. as a long time Zoner I never get cocky about my neutrality. I never rely on it to protect me. I always scan people as I come up to them and I always check the chat for who is in the next system. Relying on your neutrality gets you killed.

Make it inRP illegal for Zoner-caps to enter house-space at all

In some Houses it already IS illegal inRP for Zoner caps to be there. In the past, we've often been busy in BAF tracking down rogue Aquillon "jumpers" who aren't registered.

Newsflash, Zoners cannot do anything about Zoner jumpers either. You might want to thin about that before saying “Nerf Zoner Caps.”. We would be more than happy to polive the Zoner caps. We just aren’t allowed to.

80 fearless ---> which will become nothing but still a freaking military grade cruisers
116 nephilim ---> which will become 116 deep space vessels
124 aquillon ---> which will become 124 large armored transports
3 leviathan ( i think its 3 now ) ---> which will become actual 3 dreadnoughts -2 Actually. Phoenix and TAZ

so yea - zoners will focus more on their concept of exploration ( with transport classified RP ships ) - but they keep 2 cruisers and a gunboat - which is pretty much more than your average trading faction.
if the leviathan becomes a regular SRP capital class dreadnought, they even keep the freaking full military shipline ( any fighter, GB, CR, DE, [DN] )

unless the ppl who think their RP deserves a capital warship are afraid they won t get it.... .

Now. Let's look at that last sentance a moment and take a look at the two factions that have actual warships in the Zoner Populace. (Im not trying to be elitism here everyone, just making an example)

Phoenix.

They're based within the omicrons. One of the worst places in Sirius to live. They actually NEED a warship due to their surroundings. You may ask, "why not ask help from the Order or Corsairs?" Simple. When did you last hear or see Zoners working together with them both at the same time? Myself, not in ages. They can't rely souly on asking help with every problem that occurs require capital assets. They can try like heck, but the odds are very slim. Zoners wont be able to use Order/Corsair capitals as well. Due to such relations and what other Houses might think if they took even a single picture of a Zoner tagged/ID'd Corsair Dread or Order Geb. So they must resort to their own. Which sadly from this, will no longer happen. And Phoenix was very lucky to be able to successfully SRP their own variant of the Leviathan for those means. And actual Zoner Warship, for such occassions.

TAZ.

Based at the crossroads of four houses, (Kusari, Bretonia, Gallia, Liberty) And used by a multitude of factions for trading through the lower taus. With a long standing policy of forbidding Nephilims in combat around the area, there was little need to use them aside from psychological warfare, meaning "We have these that we could use on you, if we needed to" But never have we truely had a need for an actual warship. While publically, in the words of Doc Holiday, we cannot make our alliances public knowledge, we took steps to acquire our own heavy warship, the Persephone. Now we have it, a vessel that took many months and a lot of headaches to acquire. However with ours, we have HEAVY restrictions placed in ours. No PoB equipment like Jump Drives, Only able to travels through very limited systems, and not used to attack anyone except within Baffin. If we loose all our nephilims, and our Leviathan, our psychological advantage is gone. And what is to stop say, The outcasts from sending a multitude of vessels with their professional soldiers into a system stripped of any heavy assets outside a Leviathan turned Nephilim? In which the model still clearly shows as a Colony ship. Which may I remind you we would not use for combat.

Here. You have proof that 2 Zoner factions that actually require the Leviathan and a warship. Now how about making the Zoner's a proper bomber and fighter instead of the oversized junk pile we have that was our VHF? Scuse me SHF. Removing two ships that took a pair of factions months to even acquire and then reverting their uniqueness for something we've had for ages wouldn't be a slap in the face. I'd be a punch in the face with a brick.

Now Im sure people here might however be more willing to a fair trade to cut down on several negative things that have plauged zoners for a while now.

Please take in note the following is a proposition:

80 fearless ---> but still amilitary grade cruisers -That's fine with everyone
124 aquillon ---> Keep as is with maybe stat changes
116 nephilim ---> which will become 116 deep space vessels -That's fine
2 leviathan ---> Keep as they are to keep Unique ships in the mod, etc
Osprey SHF ---> Revert to a new/proper VHF model
Zoner Medium(?) Bomber ---> Make one for us to use instead of Civ or other gear at 75% (Civ is 100% i'm aware)

-Bit of a sidenote on players slandering Duv. It was he who helped TAZ out finishing our Leviathan SRP. TAZ would appreciate it if those doing so would keep this in mind before saying such things.

All I can say is +1 Give the Zoners what they are missing instead of trying to take away what they have and shove it in the category of “Things we don’t need”

Technology and cash is not an issue. Personnel is.

40,000 people split into dozens of different groups and comprising thousands of individual explorers and anarchists cannot maintain a fleet of battleships. No way, no how.

I take offence at this. The Zoner should be much larger than they currently are. They were at 40,00 years and years ago. People come to the Zoners much more in times of war and everybody’s been at war EXCEPT the zoners since then pretty much. So the Zoners would have a continuous stream of refugees. Australia has a very quickly growing population due to immigrants and refugees.

The Council has settled a system and had much greater numbers than the Zoners ever will before they had to flee Gallia.

The council were a faction of disillusioned troublemakers. The Zoners were at least in part a faction of disillusioned neutrals. We also are far more accepting of refugees and have a much better reputation and have been around for a hell of a lot longer. There is no reason for the Zoners to have such a small population. The corsairs have 660 million on crete alone and if you go by the infocards and the RP that we have done Crete is nowhere near as nice as Gran Canaria.

I dont guess the Council people,who are running from the Gallics and are highly reduced in number due to their exile cannot build warships either.That too of the size and power of a Redemption.

When people who are on the run and can never be in one place due to the war and are scattered around Bretonia and the other regions,they can never organise to build one warship,if that is all going by the lore.There can be thousands of loopholes in lore that can be pointed out and said.I mean that,and if people can sit along and study the loresof each and every group,the entire shipline of some groups might have to be changed.Just that we are enough settled and ok with these issues keeps many from going on moaning about minor loopholes in the lore and bragging the devs to change X/Y ships,stations.

But specifically deprieving Zoners of their assets rather than the other groups has been a major policy now right?

While I once again hate to agree with conspiracy people there does seem to be a trend towards pushing the Zoners down and taking things away from them. The Zoners got two nice planets and decent populations. You nuked the population from one and gave the other to Liberty, as if they didn’t already have nice things.

Oi, somebody said Council? (bandit)

Thing is, as Kaz said the Council is still more numerous than zoners will ever be, however we are still the underdogs, we don't build battleships, but salvage/steal and refit them, if not, then work with what we got. That said, we got like 30 Redemptions collecting dust up in Champagne, surrounded by a way greater force and 5 Redemptions in Roussillon, and then Obstinates in about the same rates, like 68/11, etc. Champagne is at a stalemate with it's surroundings, and Roussillon is underdefended. So far there has been one new Redemption refitted since the arrival to Roussillon.

Now, I would be pretty much up to restricting capital ships to official factions only in case of certain factions with limited access to battleships by lore as both a reward to be able to fly battleships as well as a responsibility to keep their in-game amount controlled and as authentic as possible. Such cases could include but not limited to Council, Hessians, IMG, Zoners, Corsairs, Outcasts, etc, you name the faction who's indies + caps you have a problem with or which faction makes no sense to have a lot of caps... But of course the dev policy isn't about nerfing the indie playerbase at all, is it? If we nerf, why not everybody?

Because the main playerbase has been working really hard to make the Zoners good. So punishing people for years of dedicated RP is not a good way to deal with things. If an indie stuffs up punish the indie, if a bunch of indies stuff up then punish indies in general. Making Zoner capships official faction policeable would be something that could only benefit the Server. You just deny us the ability to police our own ships and then take them away from us in general? Not cool

[Thexare]

Note: I drafted this from the old, half-broken thread, and I've neither the time nor the inclination to swim through the extra tears in this one.

So hi, Zoner since 4.84. Lloyd Black. First flew a Viper Mk2, then a Charon, now a Lhotse, ZRF|Blackout. Tends to be pretty mad, 'swhy he's a Zoner - to get away from all the people he hates.

But he's got nothing on the rest of you, clearly.

Gran Canaria, much like Zoner battleships, was a mistake.

Because populations the size that GC's infocard originally cited do not simply spring up overnight. But then, Disco's devs at the time were largely to blame for an inadequate understanding of scale.

But also because it leads to situations like the recent Zoner tearfest that highlight just how many people on this RP server don't seem to think things through in terms of numbers and scale.

Time to get cracking, then.

OMG stop restricting indie rights!

This line makes you look like an idiot for several reasons.

I take offence at this. The Zoner should be much larger than they currently are. They were at 40,00 years and years ago. People come to the Zoners much more in times of war and everybody’s been at war EXCEPT the zoners since then pretty much. So the Zoners would have a continuous stream of refugees. Australia has a very quickly growing population due to immigrants and refugees.

Problem with that: You already cited the dangers of the places Zoners live - it's not just the Omicrons that are hellish. Let's look at the other places the Zoners have set up shop:

Freeport 1, 5: Constant fighting between Hessians, Wild, Corsairs, Coalition, Hunters, and a few other assorted individuals.

Freeport 6, 2: Was a warzone until rather recently.

Freeport 10: Probably the nicest of the lot, but still close to the Outcast homeworld, with no really safe route in or out.

Freeport 7: oh wait

Freeports 9, 11, 15: Omicrons.

Ames Research Station: Tiny. In a notoriously pirate-infested system with no sun and dark matter all over the place.

Gran Canaria: Yeah this one was also a warzone on at least two seperate occasions, and even now a notable portion of its population hates each other. Or have we forgotten that it's not just Zoners there? I guess that'd be convenient.

Needless to say, all of the above are quite unattractive for your common civilian trying to get away from warzones.

(Edit: Oh, right, I forgot Freeport 14. But then, don't we all?)

He has a point actually. There aren’t all that many people online in the Omicrons.

And now you're trying to fall back on server dynamics to defend your position on RP.

There is no reason for the Zoners to have such a small population. The corsairs have 660 million on crete alone and if you go by the infocards and the RP that we have done Crete is nowhere near as nice as Gran Canaria.

Once again you demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of scale, in this case of population growth. It tends to be exponential. And the Corsairs have several hundred years over the Zoners.

That's all for me. Someone else can take over.

[Gytrash]

Keep in mind that for the entire eight hours that I was writing this it was open to all the Official Zoner faction leaders and all the Freeport administrators. And it also includes several sections that were added on their prompting.

[Thexare]

Because I'm kind of thick-headed sometimes, I'm back.

Keep in mind that for the entire eight hours that I was writing this it was open to all the Official Zoner faction leaders and all the Freeport administrators. And it also includes several sections that were added on their prompting.

That gibberish has a consensus doesn't make it something other than gibberish.

Anyone else around here remember when the generic Trader ID lost 5ks?

[Treewyrm]

*shrugs* I'll just continue to work on Omicrons systems, simple as. The solution (in fact two solutions) to 'mmumorpuger farming' had already been found and have seldom anything to do with this drama nonsense. Quotes of my replies that you dragged out of context were meant to reflect and to ponder on disparity between assumed role those ships had and actual usage they were having.

Also I don't appreciate dragging factions and individuals into your mess that had nothing to with it, smells overreaction and sensationalism, and attempt to get as many into this drama knee-jerk fest blown out of proportion.

Anyone else around here remember when the generic Trader ID lost 5ks?

That and much more. When VHF lost ability to mount and shoot SNAC, when old flaks were there and then taken out, when missilepods were there...

[Gytrash]

I would be interested in knowing exactly where I was dragging factions into this. And the only individuals I referenced were those who had posted in the thread or those who had voted on the poll.

Edit; And I'm somewhat offended that you call it Gibberish. I mean, it might not be the most well written and connected piece ever but you try to keep track of a single post over eight hours.

[Kazinsal]

I'm somewhat offended by the fact that being devs immediately disqualifies me and Jinx from having a valid opinion.

---

Retired, permanently.

[Gytrash]

I'm somewhat offended by the fact that being devs immediately disqualifies me and Jinx from having a valid opinion.

If you are going for a community opinion you should not vote in the poll. Because you as a dev have bias towards your pre-discussed ideas and therefore Skew the vote towards what you wish it to be. Also I'm confused as to how all the double and triple votes got in there.

For serious, check it out. I only got the option to vote once.
http://discoverygc.com/forums/polls.php?...s&pid=1886