(07-25-2016, 10:24 PM)Syrus Wrote: Why would I argue with someone who puts himself above me from the very beginning, think about how a player feels when they read your post. It comes over as if you are on a moral highground, but until there's need for "admin actions" both of us are just people of the same community. Or is that already the admin speaking, dangling the sword of "justice" above my head?
In all honesty, is that a way for an admin to act? Yes, you have the facts, the evidence, but that is part of the problem: we don't. We're left in the dark. We just got rumors to work with for some and that's not a good point to start at with such serious matters. Sanctions of such severity need to be very clear on what caused them, both as an example and to stop any discussion dead in its tracks - unquestionable evidence or at least a clear description. (A ban for someone cheating can obviously just state that the person was cheating, no need for extreme details there.)
For most of the banned we can (somewhat) see the reasons (and I would have agreed to a few on that list), but of some others ... overall it just feels inconclusive to just dish out a perma-ban with no prior warning. This overall, this is what makes the whole thing wrong, and this is why everyone deserves it to be undone.
Besides, it feels like it could hit anyone at any minute just as the admins feel like doing it with the lack of proper knowledge for "what exactly deserved a PERMANENT ban". We are not talking about a small thing here, this is pretty much the "death sentence"-penalty for Disco. The "non-plus-ultra of a sanction" available. It should not be thrown around.
You made a mistake and then complain that it backfired heavily. You have the chance to undo it.
The only right choice would have been to unban all of the six and restart the whole matter with this being considered as their last warning, would that not have been the easiest choice to make, and probably the one that'd have put all sides at ease? It would have given you every justification necessary for a ban in a following incident, yet you chose the "not half, not full" option, with a very surprising outcome to any "normal human".
(And yes, there are biased people on your team; for some it might be obvious, but I won't be the one pointing fingers.)
It's quite rich of you to say I'm putting myself over you, especially after you announced that myself and the other admins are the most incapable you have ever witnessed. What I don't understand is that you claim we're unjust, yet you do not possess all of the evidence. Read back, you said it yourself. How can I not laugh at you for that? No seriously, I smiled reading your post. You're a hypocrite, basically. You cry that the bans are unjust whilst whimpering about how "discussions" involving rumours, which you use throughout your "arguments", are unhealthy.
Furthermore, I'm now not allowed to express my opinion according to you because I'm an admin. Now that's not very fair, or just, is it? You said it yourself, we're both community members. Thus I have an opinion with the right to share it. Doesn't mean I'm correct, because that's a matter of opinion.
It is not called a "permanent ban". It's called an "indefinite ban". That means that after 6 months the banned player will be able to appeal to be unbanned. It's not a death penalty and it's not thrown around, as you can see we spent a month discussing these bans.
I am not complaining that it backfired heavily, I am expressing my displeasure for unhealthy additions to, clearly, sensitive issues. The only correct choice in your eyes would be to unban them all, but lets just remind ourselves that you do not have access to all of the evidence.
Wouldn't it be a massive plot twist if you were arguing with someone that supported unbanning members?
(07-25-2016, 07:07 PM)Syrus Wrote: Is this a joke?
People really consider this a solution; this to be the end to the situation that has been going on for way too long already?
This is just a shameful display of wrong.
"Harmful to a lev..." - yeah, harmful to you. That is what seems to matter the most, what criticism had been brought up against the admin team's decisions.
The staff currently is the worst I have seen in all the years I have stuck to Disco - and that is saying a lot. Even dear "team inactivity" did better, at least at that time their actions didn't directly harm the community. In most cases I supported admins having the last word, but that was when the last word at least made some kind of sense. THIS here, is just disgusting. A disgusting display of "we have the power, you don't, now shut up". THAT is more harmful to the community than ANYTHING these still banned individuals could ever have accomplished.
I can only shake my head at this in full disbelief of how someone can make such a wrong decision and then keep talking down from their high point without reviewing why people were so offended by it.
Too long the staff did not do their jobs properly, let it go down the slippery slope that it did, and now you lash out against those who might even have been helpful from time to time, while others who were clearly extremly harmful had even been let back on the server several times. - Yes, not all of you were there for these choices, but sudden harsher punishment should never be introduced without a warning before, and for those two to stay banned even without a warning, the situation has not changed in the slightest.
Where is the evidence of what Karst did, that brought on this ban?
This...is just unbelievable. Mind-boggling.
Can we at least get a non biased mining dev now?
Oh wait, right, you banned the one who might've done it properly, great.
Hope you are happy about the example you made.
Now please also thin out the biased people you have on the team, those which still wonder me how they ever got in there.
Cower in fear for any word you write might be your last.
The quoted post shows an extreme level of poor estimations and total none sense!
You don't have to argue with that @Cashew ... it's pointless
To Admins: i got an answer already about my question and now i am sure that you delivered the evidences which was the only major point i didn't agree on (not delivering the evidences). To guys on Probation: Good luck for those who got a 2nd chance, so use it wisely and don't get back to the same attitude or mistakes or grey areas.
(07-25-2016, 02:27 PM)xiphos Wrote: In Karst's case i was able to see some really destructive things in various chat's he was involved in. With a really bad behavior. Atleast from my point of view.
So you arbitrarily consider some of the things he says in various chats destructive? And with "various chats" being random Skype chats you happen to be in with him. Of which discussed topics could be completely unrelated to Discovery in the first place.
First of all. Please stop quoting something out of context. He was a not so nice person in these chat's with some words i would never use. Over and over again in a destructive manner. So please. Get your facts straight. He clearly deserves a ban. Not a permanent one though. if you ask me. So. Please read the whole post again
Then go complain to Skype support about it.
If you're saying that anyone on Discovery should be sanctioned on the basis of actions done in a completely different online environment, then I don't think you understand common sense sir. You cannot enforce one community's rules in another and sanction the breach of those rules in the latter.
If I'm an administrator of a game server/forum, and a player who I chat with on skype insults me on skype, I don't ban them the next time I see them on the game server/forum.
This doesn't happen, and in fact, it's utterly ridiculous, and quite frankly, I can't believe I actually have to explain it.
This is just triggering me, are you THAT desperate for evidence? You know what the funny thing is, this is all FORUM evidence NONE OF THIS IS FROM INGAME for the love of god, PUT HIM ON PROBATION AT MOST. You take me and lyth messing around in the shoutbox as a legitimate reason to ban him, that's outright ridiculous. Lyth and I have been pals since I joined core and the fact that messing around serves as reason to ban makes me re-think weather I should mess around in the shoutbox or even in flood ever again. One of the screens was from 2013 as well Jesus, at least sort out the posts to the 2016-2015 ones to MAKE it look like its somewhat legitimate.
There, I've decided to have a spine and post this because this is bothering me. I know this is probably going to get looked over because "hahahahhaha ur just biased cus core!!!!!!11" but at least bother to consider some of what I said. Really, none of this is ingame threatening evidence except for 1 sanction against a ship that wasn't even flown by Lyth and I'll be honest if people are that sensitive to being called a mong then they shouldn't be on the internet.
Some evidences really doesnt make sense, ive seen snoopy's one and lyth's one. They cant even be possible to show it as legit evidence. Im pretty sure Karst given such nonsense evidence and it given for the sake of giving evidence. This move was really wrong. At least admin team showed enough decency to discuss it again and lift four of them.
(07-25-2016, 08:10 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: I think people are just tired of fighting, Syrus. This isn't an ideal situation. No one is claiming that. It seems that many either just want to move on from this situation, or are sufficiently satisfied that some progress is being made by the Admin team. I would expect that not even individual admins are thrilled about this solution. But, at some point, a decision has to be made and usually the one you come to is one in which nobody is satisfied.
A question I have regarding this final warning is this: After the Final Warning, there is still going to be a ban vote after a month? While this would eliminate the suddenness and shock of a ban announcement, unless the violation is better stated than the violations committed by the six previous, the player under warning will be doomed to fail a ban vote because he will be unclear as to what behavior needs correcting.
There will still be a vote after that period of time, the idea behind this is to give people a chance to change their behaviour before the banhammer drops. If they want to use it, is up to them.
Quote:ONE public warning regarding what has been seen as problematic
This also includes mentioning what we think as problematic as clearly as possible
(07-25-2016, 10:24 PM)Syrus Wrote: Why would I argue with someone who puts himself above me from the very beginning, think about how a player feels when they read your post. It comes over as if you are on a moral highground, but until there's need for "admin actions" both of us are just people of the same community. Or is that already the admin speaking, dangling the sword of "justice" above my head?
In all honesty, is that a way for an admin to act? Yes, you have the facts, the evidence, but that is part of the problem: we don't. We're left in the dark. We just got rumors to work with for some and that's not a good point to start at with such serious matters. Sanctions of such severity need to be very clear on what caused them, both as an example and to stop any discussion dead in its tracks - unquestionable evidence or at least a clear description. (A ban for someone cheating can obviously just state that the person was cheating, no need for extreme details there.)
For most of the banned we can (somewhat) see the reasons (and I would have agreed to a few on that list), but of some others ... overall it just feels inconclusive to just dish out a perma-ban with no prior warning. This overall, this is what makes the whole thing wrong, and this is why everyone deserves it to be undone.
Besides, it feels like it could hit anyone at any minute just as the admins feel like doing it with the lack of proper knowledge for "what exactly deserved a PERMANENT ban". We are not talking about a small thing here, this is pretty much the "death sentence"-penalty for Disco. The "non-plus-ultra of a sanction" available. It should not be thrown around.
You made a mistake and then complain that it backfired heavily. You have the chance to undo it.
The only right choice would have been to unban all of the six and restart the whole matter with this being considered as their last warning, would that not have been the easiest choice to make, and probably the one that'd have put all sides at ease? It would have given you every justification necessary for a ban in a following incident, yet you chose the "not half, not full" option, with a very surprising outcome to any "normal human".
(And yes, there are biased people on your team; for some it might be obvious, but I won't be the one pointing fingers.)
You do not have to see the evidence to accept this decision and you are not entitled to see it either, neither you, nor Jack, nor Faction Leaders or anyone else that is not directly affected by this. The previously banned people that have asked for evidence themselves have gotten it and this is essentially all you have to know about this.
(07-25-2016, 10:42 PM)FishC Wrote: Here's my opinion.
I moderate a forum for a different online game. On our forum, making all evidence public is mandatory, but that surely does not stop people from spreading rumors anyway. Granted, having the evidence hidden makes more rumors appear, this is obvious. But they would not be staff if it they were abusive or the dictator-types. Sure, some of them might be a little biased, but do you have any idea how rare it is to find anyone who is 100% fair in all situations, not biased and at the same time worthy of being on the staff team? Well it's pretty hard.
They are the admins, we are the players, we have to trust them to do their administrative duties - which they did, when they admitted they were wrong the first time and corrected the for second time.
The big problem with public evidence, is that it can easily lead to harrassing, trolling and general witch hunts. If someone made a mistake they should be given the chance to improve, which I think, is not possible in some cases, if the evidence has been made public previously. Especially newcomes make mistakes, that could make it hard for them to be allowed to join some factions,... if the evidence is available for everyone, as faction leaders could just reject the applications, because "OH LOOK THATS THAT DUMB GUY, NOPE" would become a very easy thing to say.
(07-26-2016, 10:39 AM)Jansen Wrote: You do not have to see the evidence to accept this decision and you are not entitled to see it either, neither you, nor Jack, nor Faction Leaders or anyone else that is not directly affected by this. The previously banned people that have asked for evidence themselves have gotten it and this is essentially all you have to know about this.
As you named me, allow me to answer: Karst has not received evidence. Even though you (as in: someone on the staff) of course have his Skype and it would have been really easy to do it. It seems that in your opinion he has to ask for it "himself", which will be done asap. It's also somewhat ironic because of course a banned person cannot ask for evidence himself, that's why faction leaders did it in the correct place - the appeal thread.
However Karst told me that he was not shown the evidence that led to his ban.
The ban was done how many weeks ago? It's 4.
If you ever hope to have players accept this ruling, the victim needs to be given the evidence, and he can share it with those he sees fit. And then - if you can provide conclusive evidence on misbehaviour - the critizism will stop and trust can be rebuilt.
If you cannot make the evidence for a decision public (esp. in the face of overwhelming demand & controversy), it strongly implies that either there is no evidence, or that you lack the confidence that the evidence justifies the punishment. The former calls into question your ability as an admin, the latter calls into question the validity of the judgement
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