(09-01-2016, 10:36 PM)Altejago Wrote: Hang on, didn't you have a go at the admins a little over a month ago for not following procedure and now arguing because they followed a procedure?
Pretty sure discussing it in private and then posting a ban after it was supposedly sorted isn't procedure at all, but what do I know?
(09-01-2016, 10:35 PM)Spook Wrote: Reposting this because I entered too early.
Anyone can cheat, Durandal. Doesn't mean they will, I agree, but Devs have the higher power to as well as Admins. Also, funny how you're saying the people who are tired of the needless drama bigger than YouTube's drama shouldn't have an opinion, when you yourself are voicing your own opinion which you believe stands for the whole community, there are still the same social golden rules, to not be an arse in public. I think I've seen you say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Why not now? Yes it is their job, yes, they can edit the ini or CMP, but do it on a place where the anticheat won't be triggered, which they should have known would have been triggered in the first place.
On a side note, your Dev Strike halted the progress of game development, setting back the advancement of the game. Nice game making.
Man if I believed my opinion stood for the whole community I wouldn't need to be posting here. I think that the community should be informed of what is going on behind the scenes and form their own beliefs on the matter. Your belief is a lack of any belief at all, really.
And here we are going in circles again about how it shouldn't be done on the live server whilst simultaneously burying your head in the sand and ignoring the fact that server load can't be reliably simulated, that certain things function differently on the main server, and that there is no substitute for a live test environment.
As for the strike, yeah. That was pretty much a colossal waste of time. I made the mistake of assuming the admin team actually believed Discovery needed a dev team, not my brightest moment.
(09-01-2016, 10:41 PM)Arioch Wrote: So we're insane a couple months ago for not following procedure. We're insane now for following procedure that is clearly known and there is zero reason to claim you didn't know.
Again, no one burned Devs at the stake. Words could've been adjusted so as not to convey the thought of distrust. Not one Admin said they/we distrust Devs. You made that assumptipon all on your own. And you claim we're burning you at the stake, when all we did was follow procedure that if you flag the anti cheat, we're going to be cautious and ask what's up, and then release said person. Which is what we did.
There is no winning with you. How about another Dev strike cause we did what we have publicly said we would do? How about halting Dev work because we asked a Dev why he triggered it, and then reverted the TEMPban? But please, accuse us of burning Dev's at the stake, despite Conrad offering you a test public server, as well as not one Admin saying we distrust the Devs nor acted beyond known procedure that you complained we didn't do before.
Surely, this would have been better resolved in the first place if you informed the admins, who could have set up a specific ship that would be able to be exempted from the the auto-ban system before doing the test on the live server.
(09-01-2016, 10:42 PM)Durandal Wrote: Man if I believed my opinion stood for the whole community I wouldn't need to be posting here. I think that the community should be informed of what is going on behind the scenes and form their own beliefs on the matter. Your belief is a lack of any belief at all, really.
And here we are going in circles again about how it shouldn't be done on the live server whilst simultaneously burying your head in the sand and ignoring the fact that server load can't be reliably simulated, that certain things function differently on the main server, and that there is no substitute for a live test environment.
As for the strike, yeah. That was pretty much a colossal waste of time. I made the mistake of assuming the admin team actually believed Discovery needed a dev team, not my brightest moment.
I'm pretty sure the Admins have always known they need a Dev team, they freaking offered you a private server to be developed for your WHOLE TEAM to test on. Also, if my belief was not a belief, I would not be posting it. A belief is a certain trust or confidence in one thing correspondent to an individual or a group of people.
Devs effed up by not notifying Admins about live testing, anti-cheat fired, Admins acted accordingly. Admins effed up by posting the sanction notice including Danny's name despite the issue was resolved hours prior. Both sides effed up by lack of communication and/or miscommunication, high tempers, lack of sammich in tummy...
Solution? Calmness, communication, attention, fixing one's own errors. Did these happen? Yes. Was the issue resolved? Yes. Was Danny's name struck out in the sanction post? Yes.
Solution for the future? Communicate, for eff's sake. In a reasonable, cool-headed manner. And pay attention to both eachother and your work. All of you. Wanna test something on the live server? Tell Admins you want to and they won't be surprised why you fired off the anti-cheat. Resolved an anti-cheat issue where the person turned out to be innocent? Don't put his name into a sanction post. It's your responsibility to keep this place intact and flourishing, it's also your responsibility to maintain the healthy relationship required for that with eachother in order to cooperate efficiently. Pay attention to that and if you still make mistakes, be not at all afraid to say sorry and fix them, but also to forgive if the excuse is honest. Try to prevent issues stemming from miscommunication and mismanagement, and may the most harmful and toxic things you throw at eachother be well constructed arguements supported by sense and reason á la Thyrzul.
(09-01-2016, 10:48 PM)Spook Wrote: I'm pretty sure the Admins have always known they need a Dev team, they freaking offered you a private server to be developed for your WHOLE TEAM to test on. Also, if my belief was not a belief, I would not be posting it. A belief is a certain trust or confidence in one thing correspondent to an individual or a group of people.
The dev test server is something that is always brought back to the table but when it's actually there nobody is using it.
Last year prior to the big OVH crash madness, I had a second freelancer server running on a separate VM on our dedicated with a script to automatically pull the latest revisions from GIT every 12h so nobody would have to constantly log on the remote desktop and stop the server, pull revisions and restart it. It barely saw any use.
Why? Because the people that really need a multiplayer capable dev test server are pvp developers and when they do their stuff they fiddle with settings every 5 or so minutes and having to rely on an external server requiring a commit and restart for every change they do introduce a noticeable waste of time. It's not worth it.
Everything else is more easily tested in SP. The only real use a global dev test server is testing stuff with the pre-deployment revision and ensuring nothing is game breaking.
It's really not the issue I would consider the most important out of the lot of issues currently standing.
Justin wants autonomy for the devs from the admins and equal rights. The admins want to maintain the procedure that Justin defended a month prior. Neither groups have ever had the fluidity of communication the Community needs to function at a healthy level. Justin - like it or not - is a rather valuable developer, but even he isn't irreplaceable. As for the admins? I don't know what to even think about the recent situations and staff reactions outside of the few members of the Green team I frequently talk to. The best way to describe it is this image:
And to be honest, this whole situation is dumb and taking up everyone's time which could be spent better playing/administrating/developing the game. That doesn't mean sweep it under the rug, but realize that there's an issue and work towards fixing it. Not as person to person, since that approach will quite obviously end in an argument and hurt feelings, plus more of these threads popping up, but as staff to staff. Own up to the position you all volunteered to fill.
The development team is crucial to the progression of the mod. Yes - They should've talked to the admins before moving to test something on the main server. Auto-cheat detected it, and it should've been assumed it was a mistake, but the Admins did what they promised to do and followed the procedure you so eagerly defended with the strike.
The admin team is crucial to the coordination of the server and maintaining gameplay at a fun level, but even they aren't immune to human error. They should've expected that the dev in question was likely running tests. There have been developers in the past who tested on the main server without issues. The issue now is the new anti-cheat system and procedural conduct of sanctions prevents testing without communication. Please talk to each other without getting angry or upset. Justin calm down and practice the sandwich rule. This approach didn't work the first time, it isn't going to work again and you know it.
There are several solutions that could be had here, but nothing is going to get done without people calming down and pointing fingers at who is to blame. In the end, I don't really care and I've been waiting two months for an SRP change. I just want that done now, and I'd rather people go back to enjoying themselves here rather than getting upset over an accidental miscommunication.
(09-01-2016, 09:47 PM)Durandal Wrote: logical fallacy involved in assuming the devs will abuse things while the admin team will not.
I trust them. Do you?
I caught @Dimon putting @"Auzari" 's SRP Engines on his D9 ship in-game inRP because he wanted to see what they looked like. They're custom engines which should only exist on the one ship.
I can confirm @Vendetta's words. I was there on the Archangel. As well as @Shaggy and a lot of the other people.
(09-01-2016, 11:00 PM)Vendetta Wrote: Justin wants autonomy for the devs from the admins and equal rights. The admins want to maintain the procedure that Justin defended a month prior. Neither groups have ever had the fluidity of communication the Community needs to function at a healthy level. Justin - like it or not - is a rather valuable developer, but even he isn't irreplaceable. As for the admins? I don't know what to even think about the recent situations and staff reactions outside of the few members of the Green team I frequently talk to. The best way to describe it is this image:
And to be honest, this whole situation is dumb and taking up everyone's time which could be spent better playing/administrating/developing the game. That doesn't mean sweep it under the rug, but realize that there's an issue and work towards fixing it. Not as person to person, since that approach will quite obviously end in an argument and hurt feelings, plus more of these threads popping up, but as staff to staff. Own up to the position you all volunteered to fill.
The development team is crucial to the progression of the mod. Yes - They should've talked to the admins before moving to test something on the main server. Auto-cheat detected it, and it should've been assumed it was a mistake, but the Admins did what they promised to do and followed the procedure you so eagerly defended with the strike.
The admin team is crucial to the coordination of the server and maintaining gameplay at a fun level, but even they aren't immune to human error. They should've expected that the dev in question was likely running tests. There have been developers in the past who tested on the main server without issues. The issue now is the new anti-cheat system and procedural conduct of sanctions prevents testing without communication. Please talk to each other without getting angry or upset. Justin calm down and practice the sandwich rule. This approach didn't work the first time, it isn't going to work again and you know it.
There are several solutions that could be had here, but nothing is going to get done without people calming down and pointing fingers at who is to blame. I'd rather people go back to enjoying themselves here rather than getting upset over an accidental miscommunication.
Finally, I've been waiting for someone to say this! Thank you so much, Vendetta.
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