' Wrote:An Outcast did sorta start this by reporting them to get warned about using the Debbies, it was never his intention to get them sanctioned for the ship, or even for the guns. It was meant to be a warning.
I new it, very sad day indeed when the people that loose decide that going to the admin's about something that has been known for months, kinda smells allot like sore losers to me.
On the one hand, I respect that someone came forward and told us who did this.
Before this erupts again (can't believe I just said that) think of it from our view or at least half heartedly try.
We start to actually win something regularly well after settleing on ship and weapon choices. Before we start to win, no complaints, nothing. After we start to win, complaints, sanction reports, flames and warnings.
To us, it does smell like not-very-fair play. Whether or not the intentions were malicious, and whether or not the timing was conveniant, the ruckus that was caused certainly shows the pride and importance that we (everyone) place in this game.
To us, this looks like sore losers and whiners.
To you, it probably looks completely okay from an RP vs PVP point of view.
Both are valid to a certain extent, but this doesnt stop either side feeling the way that they do.
The timing is also another issue, due to its close proximity to the last Outcast vs Corsair fight, which didn't go too well due to the very thing that this report detailed was the problem.
It looks a little too engineered for us.
Im sure its coincidence from your point of view.
You can understand why we feel as Equinox does, I hope. And I am trying to understand how you feel on this same subject.
I read some of the posts but I think that a good thing to make the role play better is to change the 4 hours rule. No offence sorry but I think many players are getting pissed of sometimes
because of this rule.why SO MUCH TIME ? 4 hours why ? we could stay 1 hour not 4 ! Please take this in view ! . This can help us all doing more fights with RP and I think we will have much more fun like this.
Each page I have turned in this thread I let out a sigh. When I read sentences like, "Factions are crap", or when I see people revolving already solidly decided matters just for the sake of stirring up commotion and promoting chaos I can't believe what I'm reading.
The people who have proposed to act as cushion themselves against punches of ignorance (no pejorative meaning here) and, sometimes, utter idiocy (total pejorative meaning here), are so worn out by the recurrence of these things and others whose apparent agenda is to undermine these guys' attempts to promote a meaningful environment, that they are becoming unable to act sensibly and with moderation.
Faction players bashing out the so called independents in general and the so called independents bashing out factions as a whole are both on different sides of the same coin. They're wrong. They have to take a deep breath and understand that after a fashion, every faction player is (not was) himself an independent and every independent is (not can eventually become) a faction player. Everyone is capable of gathering up around an idea and of acting on a whim.
People who condone independents' rights to act as they please and oppose to factions ruling out certain aspects of that freedom can't be serious. That attitude isn't even consistent. If you ask these guys, most will say that people shouldn't be so eager about reporting others. Official factions ARE smaller meta game entities of control inside the game. That is so because the various factions' proceedings have to be firstly approved by the community as valid and promoting of a sensible and meaningful enough blanket for a given role. There is no way anyone here can keep up with every individual story for each individual character, but we certainly can have a very good grasp of every faction's overall RP.
What a great solution then, let's revoke of every faction its authority as representatives of a given role and let each individual (not independent) come up with any particular role they feel like playing. Soon we'll have Bretonian Corsairs docking their Magma Hammer loaded Wraths in Malta; Rheinland Military officers parking their Spyglasses in Newark to have a beer with his Nomad friend; meanwhile, an LSF agent slits open the throat of a Phantom whose liberal discourse is ruining Mon'Star's chances in the Kusarian Presidential elections.
Oh, hey, but we do have sanctions, don't we? Right, let's all call up to our inner photographers and fill in the admins' desks with the more ludicrous evidences against some long gone standards no one else is able to recognize or dare to call upon.
Funny how faction players protect factions and independents protect independents. You that are reading this now, please look at the mirror and ask yourself these two questions: Can I really be all right? Can everyone else who doesn't share my opinion really be all wrong?
Fact is that you harden if you can't learn to transform things rather than to oppose them. Problem with mindlessly opposing everything is that one's bound to clash against things a lot. Being constantly fighting hardens you to a point where there's no flexibility left in you for change. If you can't change and your surroundings no longer reflect the 'statu quo' to which you have become comfortable with, you feel threatened, since you're so stiff you can't adapt anymore. All you can do then, is harden even further to become an unmovable guardian of that 'statu quo', even if things around you have already changed to the way you didn't want them to be.
That doesn't, by any means, disqualify the effort of the people who do try to keep some sanity and sense to our little universe. Granted, they may from time to time come up with too steep a regulation, they may act with passion, they may be wrong. They are human, for crying out loud. And as such, not only they err, but they also grow tired and get hurt. And it does hurt when the effort you've put into something is blatantly disregarded, disqualified and undermined. No wonder some become very aggressive.
And it's funny how people think of factions like they are some sort of secret hermetic societies of zealots who act in perfect unison and whose sole purpose is to downright eliminate everyone else's fun (and apparently their own in the process). Funny thing is that there's no such unison inside of factions, there's no hidden agenda to their operations, they aren't really hermetic, and their members aren't zealots.
Some of the new people won't know about this, but not long ago there were heated discussions about Corsair and Order characters (both indies and faction members) storming Liberty in a daily basis. Most of the time they'd come in mass (with a handful of capitals), kill everyone and literally dominate the space for some time. You'd have Osirises (and I stress the plural here) troll about New York system and orbit Planet Manhattan killing the lawfuls one by one as they left the Planet. There wasn't a declared war on Liberty by the Corsairs, there wasn't a scheduled event in which the attacked forces would be able to organize a defense. The Corsair/Order alliance would dominate Liberty for the kicks of it under the excuse that they were protecting their smugglers. Finally, when things went over the top, it took measures by both the admins and the factions (TBH and Benitez) to stop the nonsense. Funny aspect of the whole deal was that when things went crazy, they suddenly were considered responsible for all the characters, not only their players. And it's not that they really had any supreme power over the Corsair roleplay aspect of the game. But they were the closest thing to it with a constant presence in Gamma.
When the capital ships go rampant in New York, all most care about doing is coming to the forum and start "indie capitals unbalancing the game" threads. When SA/LSF try and do something, these threads are replaced for "SA/LSF are abusing their power" threads.
Last month there was a heated discussion inside RM's forum regarding independents. As in the rest of the community, RM has its share of simulationists, cinematicists and recreationists (as Patrick would put them). We do get at each other when we discuss controversial matters such as this. Either way, the whole point is that we all identified that there is a latent problem there, and as much as the enablers say that these claims are unfounded and that the problem with "rogue agents" and "impersonators" is nothing but alarmism, it does exist and it does get messy. I'm inclined to believe that they couldn't care less. "If there's anything wrong just file a report". Yeah, right...
One thing people turn a blind eye on is that there is a number of "concessions" made by official factions everywhere. Examples of that in Rheinland would be: Victor Remond, Airage, MP, Homeworld and so on. Why don't we get on to these guys? Double standards? No. We don't get on to them because they are independents, not "rogue agents", "impersonators" or downright troublemakers.
Three days ago (May 10th) my character started collecting intelligence on certain suspect ships that claimed to belong to the RM, validly tagged and IDed (or at least most of them). I say "claim" not because they don't belong to the [RM] official faction, but because they're playing anything, but an RM officer. Three days later we have:
1. An RM Cruiser completely equipped with Nomad weapons.
2. An RM Cruiser that completely disregards operating through any sort of consistency, not to our laws, but to the general RP of the mod itself. It openly claimed that it made its own laws while it trespassed other Houses' territories.
3. An RM Cruiser illegally operating in Sigma-13 like it had some sort of authority there.
4. An RM Cruiser commandeered by a Bretonian Civilian engaged in vigilante activities inside of Rheinland.
Three days...
And then, whenever these characters are encountered, it's our message dumps people turn to demand an explanation or some sort of action.
Number 4 was an interesting case. He came to our forums and presented himself as the Captain of a given RM Cruiser. I've questioned him as to the story of the ship. He presented us with a story of a Bretonian civilian commanding the military vessel. I contacted him in game and spent a great deal of time talking to him. I told him to come up another story, that perhaps the ship could be retrieved by the RM and properly re-commissioned and put under the command of a military officer. Considering his overall sensibility, as far as I was concerned, I wouldn't really oppose to him keeping the ship, I just wanted him to respect the feasibility of the universe we play in and come up with a reasonable story for it. Nothing against the guy, he's okay, but in the end he decided become a BH, and now there's a BHG RM Cruiser flying about. So much for consistency.
Anyway, the overall ambiance of the mod is great, but we still seriously lack enough balance between everything to make a true depiction of the generalized struggle for survival Sirius is supposed to be engulfed in. To portray that, there must be compromises on several levels. Of roles, of ships, of equipment. I do agree that some sort of limit is to be set, but that limitation cannot impair someone from successfully portraying his role. As much as it may be claimed that some of these aspects are being pursued so they can be abused, the original issue isn't invalid. I mean, the abuse doesn't invalidate the use. The mod lacks and we do have to go around it. Whether it becomes an excuse to gain an extra edge on the competitive side of the game or not, this isn't something that can be extracted from someone else's mind like that. One has to be very careful when pointing out to another person and deciding what it is that they have on their minds.
Now, let us not be hypocrites here. No one likes to play the punching bag anymore than the next person. It's easy to point out the shabby grass at the other side of the fence when you're the one with the sharp tools. And make no mistake, this goes all ways.
McNeo the point of the sanction report was to give the Corsairs a warning about using Debbies. Nothing was said about the Tigershark. In fact, I am for you guys using them.
Gronath, great post. Too bad those that read it will see it from a tainted PoV.
On that note, I vote for Cabbages. *looks around for Angelfire*
Saddening.... There is always more than one point of view on every issue. This issue for example, I think there are some distinct problems with OURSELVES and lets focus less on other people.
One problem I see, is we demand RP for everything, we say RP can make anything possible. We say if you have good RP then it will be ok. We ask folks to post some stories if you want to be accepted.
We make rules to secure our RP, and to make sure no flimsy RP gets through.
In the end, what happens is a new person gets on. They find that they get rudely corrected many times on thier first day but, since they like the game so much they check out the forums. Then when they get to the forums and get an idea. The first thing they do is write a story to promote a ship they have never seen and want to try. Whats wrong with this? Whats wrong with haveing some agenda to playing a game for your own personal ends? Its a game, let keep it in perspective. Games are played for entertainment. Its community not yours (Yourself), it all of ours and we all have to accept each other. In other words you can describe your character, try not to define anothers, it causes problems. In the end the none RPers will be alone, as the community reenforces RP by leading by example.
Then we shoot them down. If its a "Stole it", "Escaped". "Revenge", "wanna be" story we say already seen that a million times try again. We then often the thread get reduced to flameing, and in the end no one is inspired. The veterans instantly sum up RP stories to PVP capabilities and forget RP right away. PVP should happen, not be talked about, accept in context to a story. We have made the rules harder to become a faction, we have made the rules harder to do everything that players 1 year ago didnt have to face. All for good RP. We make rules stateing that new faction request require 500 million credits, we say that you will be quickly handled and counciled as repence for your contribution. However we have a number of paid factions on the shelf collecting dust.
While some of the stories we may see are similar, SO WHAT. Give our noobs a chance. If you dont and become more accepting then we will end with nothing. I know I have volumes of story posted and I'm slowing down. Why? Cause what difference does it make? I can write my heart out and still get flamed. So, just go in game low profile and forget the forums. Dont beat any established faction member in battle and I wont get flamed, thus I can fly with whatever I want forever with no one saying anything. Or, I can try to be apart, and get scutinized like I'm trying to rule the server and, get flamed by everyone who fears a PVP encounter. When PVP isn't even the point.
We dont join factions to get tangible power over independents. If you do then you missed the point. The faction is there for you to have support and fellowship. To have others help put together a greater story. Has someone really been sanctioned over civilian guns?! :shok:If thats true then thats rediculous. Civilians are there for everyone. Just like the Zoners. Wow.
We must realize that new players are a resource not, an annoyance. If we continue to be rude and unaccepting all you will be left with the the think headed and thick skinned. People which generally dont RP as well considering the lack of sensitivity. If we want new life we have to stop acting like we are some bloddy cult where only the truely dedicated can have, X-ship.
We need to stop being too damn picky, cause all it does is make more people say why bother. There might be ideas yet to be hatched out there we are chanceing off and will never know. We are putting a bad taste of RP in more peoples mouths and giveing some the wrong impression. Like thinking here join a faction rule the server.
This place needs to be more friendly to more folk and, if you see an idea you've seen before then let it fly as long as they are not copying obviously from another source, then it cant hurt.
In short we are the problem. We need to relax its a game. We need to be more accepting. We need to give the benefit of the doubt. We, need to guide not punish. We should also make the first sanction a slap on the wrist(guidance), the second harsh (Discipline), Third (Brutal), Forth (Banned for 30 days+30 days for each breach there after.) As a side note I consider myself slapped on the wrist in loseing Zoner turret rights. But I just get on with the game.
When you get killed dont write a thread. Get on with the game. When you get robbed. Get on with the game. When you get punished by the cops. Get on with the game. If something totally unforsee and bad happens! Get on with the game. We play on this server for the community and the unpredictable nature of other people as opposed to NPCs. It might not always be picture perfect, just get on with the game!
Write something when you have more content to add to the RP section not some philisophical debate. I am guilty of this too but maybe we should focus on the RP thread and not these rules. If its in the RP its right let the admin sort it out and take it as it comes.
Gronath, well thought out post. good points as well. Kudos *where's that thread*.
Reading the whole post (and the many many others), I don't see a "slanted" view at all there.
Factions and Indies are both here to stay. I agree with the SA/LSF points about double-standarding, but it's the two groups of people doing the b*tching. I'd love to see the same person whine on both sides of the argument. Makes me laugh. But a goal would be to bring these two sides together. How? I'm not sure, but a good start is the Capship registration programs.
*Gasp!* Flay the infidel! Now hear me out. The best example, in my opinion, is Unselie's option. Just register your dadjim ships people, it's not hard, and it's not going to get you lynched. She's got it where (and I could be wrong) you just register so the Admiralty keeps track of its ships. I mean bags, the US farms out its arms to other countries, but keeps track of who gets what. Why not the houses...good income! Want to hand Liberty a billion credits for a dreadnaught? done!
But this also depends on the indies to get your butts registering your ships. Kindly (read: Kindly) point the uninformed to these here forums, and maybe we can bring these two sides together.
@mwerte: I mentioned both ship and weapon choices, as we think as a body that we should be allowed both.
I can see your point of view though.
Gronath did not leave a lot of room for maneuvre with his post concerning point of views. The ambiguity he used was the bare minimum without siding with one side, which I applaud. On the wider aspect of his post though, the indies vs the factions, I still maintain that anyone should be allowed a gunboat or a cruiser unless they prove otherwise. In the cases presented, they all proved otherwise, but I do not think a blanket measure such as the RM have taken is the way forward.
I was tempted to a similar measure myself as were a lot of the Corsairs, but Laowai more or less on his own stopped us. Probably for the better, I feel. But to say I dont agree and believe myself completely right is a lie. There are always exceptions and I hate it when people have to put up with the things that some do. However, one of the worst places is in Gamma and I have seen a slow but sure movement towards RP there, despite the lack of restrictions. Sure, its basic now and many mistakes and continuity errors are made by some pilots, but I think this is a better way forward than a preliminary ban which discourages even people like me from making an independant Rheinland Military character. Rheinland is my favourite house if I do not take into account my Japanese heritage (which I almost never do anyway) and the Valkyrie and Banshee were two of my favourite models in vanilla, surpassing the Titan by miles in their beauty. Its worth noting that I find industrial art to be very inventive and the functionality with which the Rheinland ships are designed really attracts me to them. But I wont make one because of the red tape.
Sorry, that was a bit off topic.
I will admit that I have "hardened" over the period of time I've been here, mostly recently actually. But when I look back on it, I once imagined that we could all have good fights and all be friends regardless of where our loyalties lie. This used to be the case but is not now, simply because of the size.
I do not see, perhaps because I am blind, how it is fair that we are forced to adapt yet again after we get the upper hand. I try not to mindlessly oppose everything, but I guess I just dont try hard enough.
Quote:And it does hurt when the effort you've put into something is blatantly disregarded, disqualified and undermined. No wonder some become very aggressive.
This is how both sides feel when we have these arguements. I reckon I feel this a lot more than some on our "side of the fence" if you will, as this is more than just a game to me. Maybe it shouldn't be, but thats like telling people that they can't fly under their own power with the birds in the sky. Whether they can or can't, they will dream it. When the dream is torn away from them, and they have their hearts set on it in the most dedicated way possible, they may go our and invent something to allow self powered flight, much like some did in the Victorian era. Then you put effort and genuine love and care into the development of your dream to traverse the bridge of fiction to reality. How would you feel if the goal you've been working towards is completed, yet you cannot use it because of "health and safety". Heartbroken.
Of course, that is a grossly exaggerated way of putting the situation. However, it is good to think in these terms because there is most likely someone here that feels something close to this. It may or may not be me for the right or wrong reasons. But it is not good enough to cast them aside and say "its only a game" when, to them, it just isn't.
I also agree with Scornstar on being more tolerant of new people. Whether its pretty generic or not and whether it requires imagination to think up or not, we were once in that position. In fact, the first ships I remember flying were a Kusari Battleship and an Outcast dreadnought with zero RP behind them. I also had a Helghast Spatial with 4 Codenames, 2 Kracken mk IIs and 3 Tizzy turrets. Extreme cases again, but I am sure that most of the ships that each of us pilotted were ooRP in some way.
But it is hard indeed for me to preech tolerance when I appear to show very little to others. I hope that me stating that I differentiate new guys from the older more established portion of the community as well as our agreed policy on capital ships in Gamma may show people that Im not such a childish idiot.
@cmfalconer: On this subject, many hold many different views. While I think that would definately be suitable for the houses, I do not think that it would be suitable for pirates. Generally, pirates are a little freer within their own faction about who does what, where and how. Thats my perception and I work rightly or wrongly to keep it that way. It seems to work, just slower than the other options we could take.
I'm trying hard to stay away from any of the cliche RP types in this story i'm working on...
The thing i'm concerned with is that I'm putting things out there that a lot of people might not agree with. For instance, the idea of the 'first nomads' being a failure because they did not want to fight or kill... I just hope the keeper/nomad/wilde players like the idea; I'm trying to have as little effect as possible on current beliefs revolving around the aliens or their origins, while giving the character a very unique opportunity in bringing more knowledge about them to light.
I think the reason a lot of people try to use the 'revenge', 'i stole it', 'i defected' (i'm guilty of that one) basis for their stories is because they're afraid of rejection by the community if they try to come up with something new.
Any unique or new idea regarding the history of Sirius or it's factions is very likely to be criticized by the older players here, because they have a very set-in-stone idea of how things work, and lets face it... people are afraid of change. That alone takes many of the unique background/story options away from newer players, it limits creativity.
Kinda putting myself on the chopping block with the story i'm writing for that reason, it's quite likely to be rejected because it's a very unorthodox background.
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