(07-26-2018, 09:05 PM)Thexare Wrote: And I've considered them idiotic and boring for years.
If recall correctly, you're not a PvP oriented player, right?
Not anymore, and these raids are part of why. Do you know how many Alpha raids I've dealt with over the years?
it gets old.
Like, why even bother with battleground systems? Remember Omicron Eta? Its intended use was a dedicated battleground. Instead it just became quick transit to Alpha for raiding.
Hell, why have anything other than capital systems if we're gonna take that approach? Clearly they just get in the way of PVP.
I assume you did plenty of raids, but believe me so did I and every time it was fun even when CCCP was raiding us Outcasts with 15+ Valors. I also have to point out that people were bitching far less than they are now, not sure why.
Anyway, home system raids were a natural thing on Disco, but then after a few years new players came in and started bitching about those same raids that we were doing non-stop. How you want to approach the situation is up to you and I agree that no person should get yelled at for not coming to fight, that's pretty meh in my opinion.
There are clearly two types of players, ones that like raids such as myself and others that do not enjoy/like them, it's fine by me.
As for the capital systems only... well trade balance I guess.
(07-26-2018, 08:42 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: Perhaps they are to provide a safe zone for people to gear up in peace. I personally don't mind that I'm usually not rekt between doing a /restart on a newly created ship, flying from base to base within a single system for various arms and stuff, and eventually finishing setting it up to be combat ready. I don't mind dying in combat outside of that system anytime once I have my chances of self-defense.
Perhaps they are to provide a safe zone for people to gather in peace. Sure inRP it's tactically more advantageous to hit the enemy while they are unprepared, but that usually only ends up in drama and rivers cried left and right. And closed feedback threads. It's more fun and challenging to face a well prepared opponent either way.
Perhaps they are to provide a safe zone for people to interact with eachother in peace. After all, back when NPCs were stronger, people complained a lot about them and how they interrupted ongoing RP, why would triggerhappy players with their one-liners be any different in that regard? Or should we fly 100k above or below the system plane for some peace and cyber because others can't or don't want to contain themselves?
Just because one small corner of the universe per faction (maybe a bigger corner per house) decreases the chance for meaningful hostile interactions doesn't mean those corners are completely useless or detrimental. Hostile interactions can still happen in combat zones, warzones, frontiers, conflicted space, and along the wartime supply lines filling the rest (~80-90 %) of Sirius and Gallia either way. Where they actually belong to.
Let's focus on having fun while not ruining it for others at the same time. We wouldn't want it to be ruined for us either, would we?
I will say that I have strongly disliked Yaren/Bellona's poor defences (whilst Lich has amazing defences - gunboat turrets, hardest difficulty setting etc) because too many times we've had a situation where people -literally- camp on top of the station and shoot whatever undocks. I wouldn't call this bad roleplay or anything against lore, it's just simply poor sportsmanship. On the other hand, Durban and Alabama are probably the two stations with the best defences in the game. Getting to the point, entire systems should not be nor be treated as being locked down and prohibiting interaction. That's an anti-multiplayer attitude. But I feel bases within those systems should be able to prevent bad sportsmanship. The difficulty is ensuring you can prevent camping whilst also preventing excessive hugging. I think at least, putting Mortars on capital planets was a step in the right direction. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing this on all planets.
(07-26-2018, 09:12 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:
(07-26-2018, 09:02 PM)Unseelie Wrote: Do we think it nessisary to say "alpha specifically" about this? As in, is Alpha the only home system to brush with the brush of "impenetrable?"
Perhaps it's because only Alpha and Gamma has been this notorious targets of home system raids throughout the years. I can't really name any other system similar in this regard right now. I actually wouldn't mind those two being exceptions to the home system plot armour if their relevant playerbase wants that so much.
Mu, Rho, Omega-52, Chugoku and Iota are all known for being extremely well-defended (Rho literally being known as a fortress system) but they still get raids. I think Iota (although frequent expeditions into deep Nomad territory by Core at least is established in lore) and Omega-52 (not entirely sure, if not though this is definitely an oversight, considering enemies managed to nuke JiangXi) currently lack NPCs hostile to the system owners. That should probably change.
(07-26-2018, 08:53 PM)Tænì Wrote: Bounty Hunters go into OC and CS homesystems all the time for this reason.
There's a vanilla infocard that says BHG has been known to get as far as Crete in pursuit of bounties against the Corsairs.
(07-26-2018, 09:05 PM)Thexare Wrote: And I've considered them idiotic and boring for years.
Are you seriously going to demand that people drop everything they're doing and log in just to cater to you? I mean, again, 'cause that already happened once.
Raids have a mutual benefit for all participants. It creates activity, roleplay and is fun for the majority of people. It's not one-sided. I would suggest trying to be a bit more open to the idea, and perhaps try picking up an ID that raids.
(07-26-2018, 09:18 PM)Thexare Wrote: Like, why even bother with battleground systems? Remember Omicron Eta? Its intended use was a dedicated battleground. Instead it just became quick transit to Alpha for raiding.
Hell, why have anything other than capital systems if we're gonna take that approach? Clearly they just get in the way of PVP.
Until very, very recently, on average it's been extremely rare to see an Order ship of any kind outside of Mu. I fully believe that the vast majority of Order ID'd ships in the Omicrons are docked in Mu. When hostiles ships are in Delta, rarely do they leave Mu to go interact. Dabadoru is very underused. It's not necessarily a critism, but for these players it's just a lot more convenient for them to leave their ships in Mu and wait for things to go to them.
But yeah, I think battleground systems are a little pointless with their current implementation. There's nothing interesting about them or any incentive for players to move their ships there. For IDs with multiple things to shoot, it can actually displace you away from the rest of your PvP diet. Leaving a ship docked in a home system is just the most convienient choice.
I don't think battleground systems are pointless. Some Outcasts strolled into Xi last night. Some Corsairs showed up to defend. Pews ensued. Lots of blues. A good time was had by all. No rolling up on Crete needed.
Clearly if people want to use the battleground systems, they work for their intended purpose.
(07-26-2018, 10:11 PM)Kazinsal Wrote: I don't think battleground systems are pointless. Some Outcasts strolled into Xi last night. Some Corsairs showed up to defend. Pews ensued. Lots of blues. A good time was had by all. No rolling up on Crete needed.
Clearly if people want to use the battleground systems, they work for their intended purpose.
I'd consider Xi a step up from the others because it has a mining commodity inside it. It's multi-purpose.
(07-26-2018, 10:08 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Getting to the point, entire systems should not be nor be treated as being locked down and prohibiting interaction. That's an anti-multiplayer attitude.
I don't consider such systems as anti-multiplayer, safe zones aren't foreign to multiplayer games, and in a way we can even consider Penny as such, in the context of newbies vs non-newbies.
On the other hand, creating main activities to draw people away into safe zones would be what I'd consider anti-multiplayer, but we don't really have those (except for the Penny mining). We don't have efficient trade routes touching only would-be safe zones, or mining fields located in such places, resource extraction and commerce, the two main bases of our activity pyramid, are persistently forced into non-home non-capital systems, and as a result, so is everything else on that pyramid.
Basically the few examples I've pointed out previously are the only things capable to draw people away into them, and even then only temporarily: gearing up, gathering, peacefully interacting, and in some cases, switching cargo.
(07-26-2018, 10:08 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Mu, Rho, Omega-52, Chugoku and Iota are all known for being extremely well-defended (Rho literally being known as a fortress system) but they still get raids. I think Iota (although frequent expeditions into deep Nomad territory by Core at least is established in lore) and Omega-52 (not entirely sure, if not though this is definitely an oversight, considering enemies managed to nuke JiangXi) currently lack NPCs hostile to the system owners. That should probably change.
I don't really recall too much news of Mu, Rho, Omega-52 or Chugoku raids, and I recall Iota only in the context of farming for nomad battleships. Perhaps they do occur, I do not question that, my involvement in those regions is minimal, but to me it appears to be like those are either relatively and significantly less frequent or people are just relatively and significantly more vocal about Alpha and Gamma, or Outcasts and Corsairs.
(07-26-2018, 10:08 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: and perhaps try picking up an ID that raids.
Thanks, now I finally understand people that say "do you know who I am?"
I was on the Council of Dons for... about two years? Maybe more. I know raids quite well, thanks. My opinion that they suck is informed by personal experience, as it turns out.
You've been here for 10 years so I suggested that knowing it being very likely you've dabbled in them before. The point is, giving something a chance even if you don't like it can change your opinion on it. For example, I prefer snubs to caps now, after hating snubs for quite a while.
Home raids is a thing, because it could be done fast from defending side, it they have peoples willing fight. For example, today i just switched for minute from cardi smuggling, created bomber and participate in fight with CR.(add - there maybe also problems with some restart where you couldnt fast make response ready ship)
Of course when fights become too frequent and too camping in place where it supposed be not easy, that begin bore everybody, especially when one side haven't enough active players to provide good pew. Also there moment, when you want play some kind of PvE RP and constantly interrupted in zone where it shouldnt be (like guarded area. Guarded by station, NPC or something else in-lore things), that begin bore you too, because another players simply force your gameplay in PvP while for example you dont want play it EVERY DAY for that faction.
There is note - raids on PvE RP is a thing too, if another side have forces to react. For example i could recall when we just jumped draw attention of RM on us, to not give them chances interrupt diplo meeting. On my look, even if RM raid and our response was not much RP-adjusted, that really was interesting, because gave some important tactical objective, different from "kill all red".
So, probably that all about common sense, things begin bore peoples when it happens too frequent/every-time and they couldnt response in manner as it supposed by lore due lack of number/timezone/skilled players.
Conitnue things already was said here, i'm also could suppose, add more big-level missions with proper sellpoints in places where you suppose do battlezone.
For example - farm missions in Dresden, Coalition/Hessians fly on more-or-less ready for PvP ships, and when RM take forces in Dresden, that okay, everybody ready enough for fight, and damn they already just farmed missions here, why avoid fight with player?
Right now we still have lack of it in proper places. If you suppose system as PvP activity hub, there should be placed good mission farming spot too.
Ah, also important update to all what i write here - i understand you all recall time when disco had big playerbase and live by chaos. You should understand one simple thing - when there was many players, not fully PvP oriented peoples wasnt tired from it, because always were peoples ready for pew from all sides. Now, when playerbase small and you forced to play mostly with same bunch of peoples in your timezone, they could really tire and bore from it.