Thank you everyone

[Coin]

NO. I dont think igiss supports this and i surely dont.

Cam - do you have a mentally telepathic link with Igiss, or are you attempting a socratean authoritarian argument? ('if igiss thinks its bad, then it's bad')
I hear ya - you think its bad - but you traded and traded to build yourself up to a juicy capship, and you're therefore vulnerable to fighters and bombers - how sweet would it be if they had to withdraw beacuse of lack of fuel? How much would you be taunting them as they cruised outa the system to get more??

***************

With the voting categories above we have Yes, No and Really no.
if Really no is against it, and Yes is for the idea, then the last remaining option is 'i dont know'.
this means that apart from a few voices, the majority of people are in favour.
Of the people who are in favour, the majority have come up with a balanced and reasonable argument to support their opinion
Of the people not in favour (of either stamp), the majority have not given an opinion.
Of those not in favour and have given an opinion, some have said NO, in shouty red letters, or have not introduced a balanced argument, or have used authoritarian arguments, or created unnecessary emotional tensions (these were tricks that socrates used, and he was poisoned by his friends, fer crissakes)

***************

Giving military factions a limitation is a little like real life. In war, dont kill the other soldier, wound him. Dont hit the hospitals, you only free up resources for the other side, leave the enemy artillery alone, concentrate on their fuel dumps and their shipping convoys, etc etc
In a freelancer battle, pilots are shot down, and are miraculously reincarnated as an experienced pilot without having to go through the whole nasty business of puberty and basic flight training. If your careful with your regens and mines/missiles, actually death costs you nothing.
if there is no penalty in losing, where is the prize in winning?
if you cannot kill the other side off, how are you going to win? 'we kept on fighting over the same ball of rock over and over again'... are you waiting for the other side to get bored? Ive seen this happen on a freelancer server, and it killed it off. mod dl's dropped. activity dropped. server died. (RAW anyone?)

However, this suggestion has merit: you can't kill a fighter, but u can keep him from fighting... you can hit his convoys. Remember the traders, the freighter pilots? NO WAR CAN BE WON WITHOUT A MERCHANT NAVY. so lets include them in wars; if you wanna kick the other faction out of a system, go for their traders: they will have to protect them, pulling fighters away from the battle, making less fighters available for: 1. attacking your convoys, 2. policing tradelanes against pirates, saboteurs and agents provocateurs.
Of course, then you will be facing the same problems, and then it comes down to a question of strategy, timing, and basically, who is the better general.

At this point, the lines between RP and RL blur: you really ARE fighting a war. You hate the other side with an intensity that churns up your guts, and there is not a moment when you slip out of RP, because the question of RP is completely irrelevant: no longer will it be a problem of 'not entering the system for four hours'; those bastardos just took down your convoy, robbing you of the fuel that would have kept your fighters going for months - YOU NEED THAT FUEL. YOU NEED TO MAKE THEM PAY. YOU NEED TO RAISE YOUR GAME.

and your worried about losing a few blocks of cargohold?

Ive RP'd as a lawful, a merc, a pirate, and now a trader - and boy oh boy are these the unsung heroes.
On smaller servers, there just is no point to being a trader - the runs are too well known, the bottlenecks are too easy to protect. Some mmorpgs have two factions against each other, and PVP becomes a pitched battle for nebulous 'points', a temporary advantage at best.

Imagine this: the RHA battle the OPG for control of omega 5 and base camp Bautzen station in dresden, thus putting the majority of diamond producing bases and mineable zones in the hands of unlawfuls: Doesn't that drive up the price of diamonds (even with the npc's buying it)? Any trader who is carrying diamonds from NB to NT is suddenly a much juicer target, because few people can get hold of diamonds to take up there. The traders start investigating other runs; they also start trading diamonds DIRECTLY from the RHA, who use this influx off capital to buy more equipt, armour, recruit pilots, etc etc. And all this is possible because the only people interested in traders are the pirates atm.

The point is that there is a prize at the end of the gameshow, or whats the point in competing. 'Too RL', but guess what? Its real life because going to war to secure resources for your tribe is called human nature. By voting no, i guess your really voting against human nature: 'No, I dont want to have to defend my kith and kin, lets make this game unrealistically simple'

This game has been kicking around in various formats (elite?) since I was twelve (lets just say over twenty years and leave it at that, huh?). Each incarnation has brought more complexity to it, more things to learn, more challenges and this has been a good thing, as it has given us, the players, new skills, as well as those wonderful techno-gifted savants who know how to texture ships, write code, and generally, create the game that you love so well: each mod that passes beta testing, they learn a little more of coding (a black magic as far as i'm concerned - up set a coder at your peril, cos he could make your ship fly sideways or something, which would be an awesome punishment actually, no ban, just turret view only hehehhe)

I'd like to see this game get even harder:
- fuel that takes up cargo space, so you have to trade off how far you want to go with how much cargo u want to carry, and then you either make stops to refuel (no real hardship) or have a buddy meet you, or buy a second cargo halfway around to utilise the space freed up by burning fuel....
- different engines that create different cruise speeds
- automated docking removed - skillz only
- shield,laser,and thruster power interlinked, so as your lasers recharge, your shield recharge rate reduces.


I appreciate that not everyone will want to play like this, because it introduces a hell of a lot of variables, and 'whats wrong with the way things are now?'
Simply, if things don't change and become more complex and challenge us and involve us, etc etc, we'll all get bored and end up playing HALO 9 or something, shouting into vent "ROFFLE, I OWNNNNNN"
wheres the RP in that?

---

A Day in the Life of an NPC | Coin | The Journal of Caius Oakley | Build Your Dream Boat

[song]

if you cannot kill the other side off, how are you going to win? 'we kept on fighting over the same ball of rock over and over again'... are you waiting for the other side to get bored? Ive seen this happen on a freelancer server, and it killed it off. mod dl's dropped. activity dropped. server died. (RAW anyone?)

However, this suggestion has merit: you can't kill a fighter, but u can keep him from fighting... you can hit his convoys. Remember the traders, the freighter pilots? NO WAR CAN BE WON WITHOUT A MERCHANT NAVY. so lets include them in wars; if you wanna kick the other faction out of a system, go for their traders: they will have to protect them, pulling fighters away from the battle, making less fighters available for: 1. attacking your convoys, 2. policing tradelanes against pirates, saboteurs and agents provocateurs.
Of course, then you will be facing the same problems, and then it comes down to a question of strategy, timing, and basically, who is the better general.

At this point, the lines between RP and RL blur: you really ARE fighting a war. You hate the other side with an intensity that churns up your guts, and there is not a moment when you slip out of RP, because the question of RP is completely irrelevant: no longer will it be a problem of 'not entering the system for four hours'; those bastardos just took down your convoy, robbing you of the fuel that would have kept your fighters going for months - YOU NEED THAT FUEL. YOU NEED TO MAKE THEM PAY. YOU NEED TO RAISE YOUR GAME.

and your worried about losing a few blocks of cargohold?

I like this. I think it's essentially true...sure seen symptoms of it with many players.

In short--what is appealing to those of us who like the idea, is that it introduces one more level of strategy.

Instead of long term having "all the strategy of checkers and the excitement of chess" it does put a little more play in things.

I do however draw the line at toilet paper. If that is introduced as a commodity I refuse to leave battle to go get some because my ship does not have a toilet.

My silent protest.

---

<span style="font-family:System">Hogosha Exile</span>
The Journal of Benjo Dokosai

visit

[Stucuk]

With the voting categories above we have Yes, No and Really no.
if Really no is against it, and Yes is for the idea, then the last remaining option is 'i dont know'.
this means that apart from a few voices, the majority of people are in favour.
Of the people who are in favour, the majority have come up with a balanced and reasonable argument to support their opinion
Of the people not in favour (of either stamp), the majority have not given an opinion.
Of those not in favour and have given an opinion, some have said NO, in shouty red letters, or have not introduced a balanced argument, or have used authoritarian arguments, or created unnecessary emotional tensions (these were tricks that socrates used, and he was poisoned by his friends, fer crissakes)

I find that bit of what you said funny. That the No camp has not come up with any good reasons why its a bad idea, dispite the fact we have.

More restrictions you have, the more you force players to do things only how you want to do things the less people will Stick around. The only restrictions that everyone would accept is ones which help against ooRP, not ones which don't add anything to anyones RP.

If FL was real all ships would be automaticaly fueled up at stations/bases before they left off. In a game however people can easily forget(as we don't live in Freelancer). Ships wouldn't run out of fuel if FL was real unless one of 2 things happend:

1. A part on your ship has grown old and wasn't replaced and now its broken so your ship is leaking fuel or Faulty guage (Both = Maintenence).
2. During a battle your fueltanknes/whatever sustained damage and are leaking fuel.

So if we properly RP it, then it wouldn't add anything to RP as noone would run out of fuel. Its like driving a car, you fill it up when u are near a Petrol Station. How meny people actualy run out of fuel while driving(Not counting ones caused by things like Faulty guages)? Can't be meny.

---

[song]

If FL was real all ships would be automaticaly fueled up at stations/bases before they left off. In a game however people can easily forget(as we don't live in Freelancer). Ships wouldn't run out of fuel if FL was real unless one of 2 things happend:

1. A part on your ship has grown old and wasn't replaced and now its broken so your ship is leaking fuel or Faulty guage (Both = Maintenence).
2. During a battle your fueltanknes/whatever sustained damage and are leaking fuel.

So if we properly RP it, then it wouldn't add anything to RP as noone would run out of fuel. Its like driving a car, you fill it up when u are near a Petrol Station. How meny people actualy run out of fuel while driving(Not counting ones caused by things like Faulty guages)? Can't be meny.

Well, you did prove your point. You must have unlimited fuel already to fly around with circular logic like this.

Hehe..sorry, it was an easy target;)

---

<span style="font-family:System">Hogosha Exile</span>
The Journal of Benjo Dokosai

visit

[Coin]

I do however draw the line at toilet paper. If that is introduced as a commodity I refuse to leave battle to go get some because my ship does not have a toilet.

I have a lot of friends in the military. I am assured that when the taliban starts shooting at you, toilet paper becomes irrelevant, and a power-shower is more appropriate.
:rtfm:besides, isn't it an ideal use for the paper that standing orders are printed on?

/off-topic END+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How meny people actualy run out of fuel while driving(Not counting ones caused by things like Faulty guages)?

Well, you did prove your point. You must have unlimited fuel already to fly around with circular logic like this.

I dont see the circular logic. Stucuk is saying that no-one runs out of fuel when the gauge works properly; you fill the tank when the light comes on, or before a long journey. If your not sure how long the journey is gonna be, you pack extra. However, the point of this debate is to see whether we want to make the game harder (=more fun imho), not whether we say 'oh, the engines work by a process we call 'Magic', and run for an indefinate length of time, so they're really good value'.

Can anyone suggest a technology that provides this? Nuclear is not really an option, as the fuel rods need to be reprocessed in order to provide 'eternal fuel' (or 500,000,000 years, which, from my point of view is as close to an eternity as i need to consider).

Oh, btw, only a small amount of oxygen is required by the human bod at rest: the carbon dioxide can be removed by CO2 scrubbers, as is used on submarines and deep-water diving rigs, so given the scale of the starflier to the scale of the little pilot inside, you probably have enough oxygen to survive 2 months, maybe 3.

---

A Day in the Life of an NPC | Coin | The Journal of Caius Oakley | Build Your Dream Boat

[Linkus]

Well, you did prove your point. You must have unlimited fuel already to fly around with circular logic like this.

Hehe..sorry, it was an easy target

Game mechanics come before RP and OORP.

---

Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[GADC]

...oh if Zig were to see this...

Hmm the topic is thought to be closed? I just bumped it so people can read the thank you list. As requested.


But... <.<

>.>

It's hard to can people to actually RP PvP with you. In any event traders setting a time limit to themselves while being chased? A bit too hard for people to do that.

---

LEZEN GARMEN.



&quot;This is not a revolt, this is the final solution.&quot; Garmen's Epistle

http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?sh...16611&amp;st=20

[Stucuk]

However, the point of this debate is to see whether we want to make the game harder (=more fun imho), not whether we say 'oh, the engines work by a process we call 'Magic', and run for an indefinate length of time, so they're really good value'.

You could say the same thing about eating, sleeping and any number of things we do in the real life which doesn't happen in a game (Wouldn't be much fun watching our character sleep). The point iv been trying to make is that it won't make the game any funner or add anything to RP. What it will do is just annoy people that they have to fill up for no reason except to make the game more like Real Life. As iv said in previous posts, people RP to have fun, not so they mimic every detail of real life in a game.

All that would happen is it would after a while become routine and the only people who would be getting cought out would be the new people. Which would just defeat the "It would make it harder argument".

---

[GADC]

"The Sims" anyone? When ever I log off i make sure im in a base or far away from NPC zones...SO i would consider my little dude sleeping while I am logged off.. As for the eating if you stay with in a populated area it's not to hard just to dock and get something to eat.

---

LEZEN GARMEN.



&quot;This is not a revolt, this is the final solution.&quot; Garmen's Epistle

http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?sh...16611&amp;st=20

[Stucuk]

"The Sims" anyone? When ever I log off i make sure im in a base or far away from NPC zones...SO i would consider my little dude sleeping while I am logged off.. As for the eating if you stay with in a populated area it's not to hard just to dock and get something to eat.

Yes but my point was that there is lots of things which currently arn't like real life, our chars don't die if they don't eat, they don't die of lack of sleep if they never sleep, etc and that if they did it wouldn't add anything to RP or add to the fun factor.

---