Quote:But it DOES hack their account. And lawfuls laying in wait above the planet is not RP ... they need to actually patrol. We've got way too many lazy lawfuls just hangin out waiting for smugglers to show up. And then they get into their lulwhuting because their board waiting for a smuggler to show up. I'd much rather have an actual encounter with an LPI character role play with me to drop my cargo than to land and find its gone ... and the only thing I get is some "computer" message telling me who took it. You typing some command requires no "human" interaction is hardly role play.
First, it hacks no ones account, it is a new game mechanic to try and bring more realism to the game, that's all.
You get warned before you dock. There will be no surprises.
Ah ... so its discriminatory in nature. ONLY for the good guys eh? To heck with pirates having the SAME freaking problem with traders eh? Listen ... you want this thing ... its gotta be for both sides. My pirate gets sick of seeing "lawful" traders docking on unlawful bases to avoid piracy. Its really no different than a lawful trader docking with Manhattan with "unlawful" cargo. So ... quit being one sided.
I would love to see this extended to unlawfuls. However I am less familar with there roleplay and with how confiscation would work for them or who they would confiscate from. I am not trying to be one sided, I am just trying to start with what to me would be the easier part of the command. If you or anyone else could provide ideas on how to best extend it to unlawfuls I would love to hear them.
So he doesn't land and instead gets destroyed by the overzealous lawful. Cause you know darn well the lawful will NOT let him go anywhere without dropping the cargo. So ... the smuggler has two choices ... dock and lose his cargo ... or don't dock and get destroyed by the lawful and lose his cargo. Yeah ... great choices.
The point is a smuggler shouldnt be docking with a lawful base with someone sitting there looking for smugglers. To me this seems perfectly in RP. As I said before if you dock with a mooring fixture in a transport, in RP your ship just sits there in space, meaning the police could make you drop cargo right there.
If this is implemented you will just have to find other, more in RP solutions to smuggling in transports, like smuggling to out of the way or semilawful bases, or bribing cops, or having associates create distractions in system. I would also like to acknowledge that yes, this would make it harder for smugglers, so I think smuggling routes should be more profitable if it is implemented. However it would also be more realistic I believe.
Of course video games cant always be more realistic because realism isnt always more fun. I think this would add more complexity for everybody though, and I find complexity and realism in an RP game very fun.
Its gonna be abused ... like it or not ... its gonna be abused. Noobs in a starflee buys a Police ID and executes the command ... poof ... guy that's been here for years working his role play gets screwed.
Oh, another good point, and one that is easy to fix as well. There are two ways to fix this. You can either put a level requirement on the command, or, and this I really rather like, make the command cost credits, then the command user will be losing money as well even if the smuggler doesnt necessarily, of course this will make them a lot less willing to let anyone get away with an RP excuse and is fairly OORP. The level requirement makes sense though, it seems like a higher ranking member would be able to more quickly contact the dockmaster and have him seize cargo. You could also have it on a scale, so the higher the level of someone who uses the command the more likely the smuggler will get their cargo seized.
' Wrote:A command that makes the NPCs temporarily hostile on whoever you use it?
This was brought up before and rejected. It is much more prone to abuse as it would have a much larger effect.
' Wrote:How does a lawful typing a command that requires no interaction with the smuggler FORCE the smuggler to role play? I mean ... doesn't the lawful have to role play as well? Or is this secondary?
EDIT: Still haven't addressed the problem of traders doing this very thing to pirates.
It forces the smuggler to RP because they have to stay in space and RP (instead of quick docking) like they would have to in RP anyway.
I have addressed the problem of traders using it on smugglers. Only certain ID's can use the command.
Anything else wrong with it?
PS:
' Wrote:There is only one way to settle this:
Make a poll!
No poll please, not yet. I want to work on this more and I dont want it to become an us vs. them thing.
' Wrote:First, it hacks no ones account, it is a new game mechanic to try and bring more realism to the game, that's all.
You get warned before you dock. There will be no surprises.
It hacks the persons character ... not saying it hacks the account ... but it DOES hack the character. Getting a warning is not good enough. If you wanna role play with me ... then you'd better role play with me. Using some hack like this is not role play. Its just a convenience for lawfuls to put a stripe on their ship for smugglers caught. Try patrolling and catching the smuggler before he gets to the planet. THAT is more realistic.
I would love to see this extended to unlawfuls. However I am less familar with there roleplay and with how confiscation would work for them or who they would confiscate from. I am not trying to be one sided, I am just trying to start with what to me would be the easier part of the command. If you or anyone else could provide ideas on how to best extend it to unlawfuls I would love to hear them.
If you claim this command would force a smuggler to role play with lawfuls ... then the opposite would also be true ... it would force the trader to role play with the pirate. Simple logical extension to this thought.
The point is a smuggler shouldnt be docking with a lawful base with someone sitting there looking for smugglers. To me this seems perfectly in RP. As I said before if you dock with a mooring fixture in a transport, in RP your ship just sits there in space, meaning the police could make you drop cargo right there.
The point is ... lawfuls shouldn't be camping the docking ring. NPCs patrol ... they don't just hang out waiting for someone to come along so they can gank them. ANY command that alters another person's character to support YOUR role play is not role play. It is a one sided command. How about a bribe command ... the smuggler could type /bribe <char name> and the character would receive a bribe from the smuggler and the character would no longer be able to detect the cargo? Lawfuls on this server always have a one sided solution to dealing with smugglers and pirates. There is no balance to this command. I've even tried to role play a bribe with lawfuls ... they have no imagination when it comes to role play ... they're like robots. You wanna role play with me ... get creative ... but don't come up with cheats like this command.
If this is implemented you will just have to find other, more in RP solutions to smuggling in transports, like smuggling to out of the way or semilawful bases, or bribing cops, or having associates create distractions in system. I would also like to acknowledge that yes, this would make it harder for smugglers, so I think smuggling routes should be more profitable if it is implemented. However it would also be more realistic I believe.
The real problem is Manhattan. Manhattan is THE biggest black market in Liberty. Nearly everything "illegal" is sold there for the best price. I personally try not to move my contraband there ... instead I take it to the next highest place that purchases the stuff. But until these "contraband" commodities are distributed more evenly so the smuggler can role play a smuggler (without a bunch of guys calling them OORP for being silent about it) ... then we're gonna continue to have this problem. Its kinda like legal goods being purchased for higher prices at unlawful bases. Lawfuls should be cracking down on these "lawful" traders who are supporting criminals and enemies of the state. But no ... they only concentrate on smugglers.
Of course video games cant always be more realistic because realism isnt always more fun. I think this would add more complexity for everybody though, and I find complexity and realism in an RP game very fun.
Video games are designed to escape from reality ... not mimic it. Instead of "fun" ... what we end up with is rule lawyers and angry people that don't get their way. And we've got WAY too many people who take things personal. Keep this in mind ... just because YOU think its OORP ... doesn't mean that is actually is OORP. You play your characters from YOUR perspective. I'm tired of reading complaints about how "a pirate wouldn't really do that" ... how the heck do you know what a pirate would do? How someone "should" act based on your opinion is your opinion. This is not single player where you are playing against programmed NPCs. You have real life thinking and breathing humans behind these characters. Granted there are some that refuse to role play ... but lets not be the role play police please. I'm not gonna bow down to someone just because they're upset that they didn't catch me before docking. And I CERTAINLY do not wanna dock (after you chased me for 5-10 minutes) and find out my cargo is missing. If you cannot catch me before I get to the base ... you lost the event. Move your bleeping tail away from the planet and catch these smugglers as they enter Liberty space. You know where they're coming from ... post yourself at the jump gates and jump holes ... catch them as they enter the system and hunt them down. There is FAR more enjoyment "chasing" a smuggler than sitting on your duff waiting for them to show up at the last 30 seconds of their 20 minute journey. Think about it ... you travel all the way from Malta ... encounter all sorts of hostiles ... and in the last few seconds you see your destination in sight. And what happens ... some jerk who's been sitting on his hands decides to type a command to end it all. Not fun. Get out and enjoy the "game" and quite being a ninny.
Oh, another good point, and one that is easy to fix as well. There are two ways to fix this. You can either put a level requirement on the command, or, and this I really rather like, make the command cost credits, then the command user will be losing money as well even if the smuggler doesnt necessarily, of course this will make them a lot less willing to let anyone get away with an RP excuse and is fairly OORP. The level requirement makes sense though, it seems like a higher ranking member would be able to more quickly contact the dockmaster and have him seize cargo. You could also have it on a scale, so the higher the level of someone who uses the command the more likely the smuggler will get their cargo seized.
I tell you what its gonna do ... its gonna cause people to quit smuggling altogether. What you're gonna do is completely destroy the role of a smuggler. Might as well just delete the Smuggler ID ... get rid of contraband commodities ... cause nobody's gonna wanna deal with it. And believe me ... if this command is implemented ... I'll have my fingers ready to take some snapshots of these encounters. The number of rule violation reports is gonna go up ... especially when people type this command without uttering a single role play word. I guarantee you many are just gonna sit at the docking ring ... scan the ships that pass by ... type the command the instant the smuggler touches the mooring fixture / docking ring. There won't be a word spoken to the smuggler ... and the smuggler will not have enough time to reverse course to avoid being affected. Let me just say this ... you're killing the fun of this game by being so high strung about a smuggler or two get past you. Its annoying as all get out to be chasing a trader in my pirate vessel and just watch him dock on one of MY friendly bases ... I mean ... if I'm pirating the guy wouldn't MY base prevent him from docking? Wouldn't MY base's dockmaster take custody of this trader's ship and all its contents? But you only offer the idea of helping the lawfuls. This is way too one sided.
Quote:It forces the smuggler to RP because they have to stay in space and RP (instead of quick docking) like they would have to in RP anyway.
I have addressed the problem of traders using it on smugglers. Only certain ID's can use the command.
Anything else wrong with it?
No it doesn't ... it makes it to where the lawful doesn't have to role play. It discourages the lawful from working at catching the smuggler. And "staying in one place"? I've tried that before ... never ends well for the smuggler. Even without this command I come to a stop before docking (in role play) ... and I ask the lawful what I can do for them. They tell me to "drop the cargo or die." Come on ... where's the option there? I dock and lose the cargo or I drop the cargo in space and lose the cargo or I get destroyed trying to dock or escape and lose the cargo. Either way you look at it ... I lose the cargo. Benefit is ONLY to the lawfuls. Now ... if there is a way out ... here we go ... we'd have to have a "rule" that requires the lawful to let the smuggler go in tact with his cargo so long as he takes the cargo somewhere else. But guess what ... that will never happen. So ... you wanna "encourage" role play? Then you need to give the smuggler the option to leave WITH his cargo to take it somewhere else. Can you guarantee to me that lawfuls will allow the smuggler to role play a bribe ... or to allow the smuggler to take his cargo to a different destination? If so ... you shouldn't have issues with smugglers. But as it stands now ... the smuggler has one option and one option only ... get to his destination without being spotted. What this means is the smuggler AVOIDS any interaction with lawfuls whatsoever. Is this what you seek?
1] Lawfulls dont nee this extra edge on smugglers.
2] Lawfulls have the entire run to catch the smuggler on. Yet they cry about the last 10 seconds of the trip just because they cant be bothered moving away from manhat and patroll systems close to the end of the run. (Assuming this is an Artifact or Cardimine run.)
Come to think of it. All the times ive been caught it has been one or 2 systems from the sell point.
I have one lawful character that does any sort of smuggler interdiction. I dont use him that much for that, heck, I dont even play him that much. None of this is coming from a perspective biased towards lawful smuggler stoppers.
How much time after the the warning is issued is enough for the command to take affect, 10 seconds, 20 seconds, any other value?
You seem to be mostly upset because this will change things and you are unwilling to try something different or adapt to it. You do realize if it is tried it can be undone, right?
As for campers, you might get some, but you are right, it is so boring I dont think it will be a huge problem.
I am not upset because i didnt catch someone or someone's. I am doing this because of people that quick dock instead of RP, when in RP this would leave them hanging in space. If you think this game mechanic, RP convention is incorrect feel free to dispute it but the fact is that no smuggler in a transport could get away with docking with a base if an un-bribable law official in the same system had seen them, as far as my impression of currently accepted RP goes, but please feel free to tell me if my impression is incorrect.
I would like to add that I think this would encourage so much RP. I mean you could send ahead scouts to see if there was a lawful waiting for you. You could speak up in system chat and try and feel out any bribe able officials. You could declare an emergency and request help in some sector away from where you will be docking, or pay someone else to do it. I really think it would add a lot, but all you seem to be seeing is what it will take away, most of which does not seem to be RP.
Lastly, I said I would love if this idea was extended to unlawfuls but I dont have a lot of expertise here. So I asked for your help. Instead of helping you just yelled at me for not doing it. I am sorry if I dont feel like helping when all I feel I am getting from you is hostile critique and aggressiveness. I really dont want to provide you with more things that you can yell at me for.
I dont know what more I can say at this point. I am sorry if I offended you by suggesting this. I just want to try and encourage RP here and make it more fun for those that do RP. But if this is the kind of reaction I get for suggesting new ideas, I just dont know if it's worth trying...
' Wrote:2] Lawfulls have the entire run to catch the smuggler on. Yet they cry about the last 10 seconds of the trip just because they cant be bothered moving away from manhat and patroll systems close to the end of the run. (Assuming this is an Artifact or Cardimine run.)
How do you propose a single lawful catch a smuggler that has a 10-second lead?
You can't do it
The only way to catch smugglers is to be ahead of them and then disable the next trade lane. And even that is hard if you're chasing an experienced smuggler.
' Wrote:How do you propose a single lawful catch a smuggler that has a 10-second lead?
You can't do it
The only way to catch smugglers is to be ahead of them and then disable the next trade lane. And even that is hard if you're chasing an experienced smuggler.
He radios ahead to the lawful base, tell them to stop the cargo from being unloaded from his ship, or seize it. Seems pretty in RP to me. And yes, it would be a change in game mechanics.
Being able to temporarily set a faction you have both ID and IFF for hostile to somebody, just like every single bleeding NPC in the game is able to do, would solve this problem instantly. Hostile bases reject your docking. Leave the system, you stop being shot at and can make another go of it. It'd take less time to just sell your stuff to the Junkers, though, if you're busted.
And if the command notifies the target of who used it, and is logged to a text-file, it'd be pretty easy to appeal to the community to deal with anyone trying to abuse it.
I have one lawful character that does any sort of smuggler interdiction. I dont use him that much for that, heck, I dont even play him that much. None of this is coming from a perspective biased towards lawful smuggler stoppers.
Congratulations.
How much time after the the warning is issued is enough for the command to take affect, 10 seconds, 20 seconds, any other value?
How about not having the command at all? How about freaking ROLE PLAYING?
You seem to be mostly upset because this will change things and you are unwilling to try something different or adapt to it. You do realize if it is tried it can be undone, right?
*HEADDESK* Have you read a single word I've written? I freaking role play buddy. What you fail to realize is that this command is not going to affect JUST those that refuse to role play with you. This is going to affect EVERY player that role plays a smuggler ... even the best role players will be screwed. All because you want a "convenient" method of getting at the bad ones. Don't throw out the good with the bad. Do you not acknowledge that this puts smugglers in a no win situation? The ONLY winner will be the lawful. A trader will NEVER be able to make it to Manhattan without seeing a lawful loitering about the docking ring. This game is for everyone's enjoyment ... not just yours.
As for campers, you might get some, but you are right, it is so boring I dont think it will be a huge problem.
With this command ... there will be no need for a lawful to leave Manhattan to conduct patrols for seeking out these smugglers. Heck ... why would I bother chasing someone down if all I had to do was hang out and wait? You know darn well that's what will happen. So ... role play for a lawful to chasing down a smuggler will be dead. All we're gonna get is frustration.
I am not upset because i didnt catch someone or someone's. I am doing this because of people that quick dock instead of RP, when in RP this would leave them hanging in space. If you think this game mechanic, RP convention is incorrect feel free to dispute it but the fact is that no smuggler in a transport could get away with docking with a base if an un-bribable law official in the same system had seen them, as far as my impression of currently accepted RP goes, but please feel free to tell me if my impression is incorrect.
You still have NOT addressed a lawful trader quick docking to avoid piracy. You seem to be avoiding THIS side of the discussion. You wanna talk about unrealistic ... you don't "dock" with a planet. You don't have a single entry point. You hit atmosphere ... maybe you get detected and maybe you don't. The ships flown and the planets are not to scale. Planets are HUGE and even the largest ships are TINY in comparison. You couldn't possibly detect and engage every ship that hit atmo and then when they landed ... there's not just one place for them to go. There's likely islands and several major metropolitan areas for the guy to hide. Not to mention the deserts and mountainous terrains where people can get lost easily. So ... talk realism ... then accept that this is a game and not real. Now bases ... yeah you might have a point. Not much space to hide on a base orbiting a planet or whatnot ... but a planet is to large for you to catch every smuggler that comes along. What I'd like to see is getting rid of docking rings and mooring fixtures on planets. Instead of "docking" with a planet ... you'd enter the atmosphere and disappear.
I would like to add that I think this would encourage so much RP. I mean you could send ahead scouts to see if there was a lawful waiting for you. You could speak up in system chat and try and feel out any bribe able officials. You could declare an emergency and request help in some sector away from where you will be docking, or pay someone else to do it. I really think it would add a lot, but all you seem to be seeing is what it will take away, most of which does not seem to be RP.
Where will this encourage RP? You're only seeing one side of this. If I'm a smuggler and I know this command exists ... guess what ... I'm gonna avoid Manhattan like the plague. You'll never EVER see a smuggler bound for Manhattan. And you'll find the LPI bored stiff because there's nothing to do. Pirates are already being so overly legislated by the rules and complaining traders that there's no encouragement to RP. Instead of pirating traders ... many pirates have turned to assaults on LPI, LSF and such. Let me ask this question ... Why in the heck is it that everytime someone comes up with a rule suggestion its lawfuls that wanna place limitations on unlawfuls? And the rationale the lawfuls always come up with is that the unlawful is OORP. What you're saying is that the only people in RP are lawfuls ... is this what you're saying?
Lastly, I said I would love if this idea was extended to unlawfuls but I dont have a lot of expertise here. So I asked for your help. Instead of helping you just yelled at me for not doing it. I am sorry if I dont feel like helping when all I feel I am getting from you is hostile critique and aggressiveness. I really dont want to provide you with more things that you can yell at me for.
Not being hostile here ... I'm just frustrated at all the anti-pirate and anti-smuggler threads that pop up on nearly a weekly basis. I get tired of pirate and smuggler bashing. This thread has been bashing smugglers by claiming ALL smugglers deserve to be treated this way. Your command will not just affect the bad role players ... its gonna affect the good ones too. And the good ones will get frustrated and say to heck with it ... its not worth it anymore. Then all you're left with is the bad smugglers that don't role play. Trust me ... you cannot FORCE anyone to role play ... I've tried ... and I got frustrated and just learned to ignore them.
I dont know what more I can say at this point. I am sorry if I offended you by suggesting this. I just want to try and encourage RP here and make it more fun for those that do RP. But if this is the kind of reaction I get for suggesting new ideas, I just dont know if it's worth trying...
You did not offend me. I'm just against the command. All I'm doing is trying to get you and others to acknowledge the other side of the issue. If you wanna ignore my concerns ... that's up to you. But I see nothing good coming from this command. I agree that game mechanics limit people to the point they have to behave a certain way. But for one use to be able to type a command that affects someone else ... sorry ... I will never buy into that. Instead ... I would suggest a game mechanic that completely removes the quick dock function. Make it to where the docking ring forces every player to wait 5 or 10 seconds before they are given permission to dock ... THIS is better role paly ... AND you don't have some lulwhutter typing in some command that pisses people off. Would you at least accept this idea over a user command? Because I REALLY REALLY am against any command that directly affects someone else. All the other user commands only affect the person typing it. There is no takecash command that removes cash from someone else ... the renameme command only affects the guy typing the command ... etc etc. Do you follow what I'm saying?
Quote:You still have NOT addressed a lawful trader quick docking to avoid piracy. You seem to be avoiding THIS side of the discussion. You wanna talk about unrealistic ... you don't "dock" with a planet. You don't have a single entry point. You hit atmosphere ... maybe you get detected and maybe you don't. The ships flown and the planets are not to scale. Planets are HUGE and even the largest ships are TINY in comparison. You couldn't possibly detect and engage every ship that hit atmo and then when they landed ... there's not just one place for them to go. There's likely islands and several major metropolitan areas for the guy to hide. Not to mention the deserts and mountainous terrains where people can get lost easily. So ... talk realism ... then accept that this is a game and not real. Now bases ... yeah you might have a point. Not much space to hide on a base orbiting a planet or whatnot ... but a planet is to large for you to catch every smuggler that comes along. What I'd like to see is getting rid of docking rings and mooring fixtures on planets. Instead of "docking" with a planet ... you'd enter the atmosphere and disappear.
Actually, you have hit a snag in your logic here. You see only freighter and fighter class ships were desighned to ever enter the atmosphere, larger vessels can't because it's simple to difficult and to expensive to do so (think of the cost of fuel to reach escape velocity without a docking ring help, there goes your profit out the window right there).
In addition when one enters the atmosphere without using a docking ring they would have to do so extremely slowly (go to fast and boom, which happens in game), giving the police plenty of time to track your ship and send atmosphere fighters to intercept, the larger the ship the slower you have to go and the easier you are to track which just compounds the problem.
Not to mention that even on Earth today we have ways of picking up flying objects, and since I doubt that there are many transports flying around in atmosphere the ship would stick out like a sore thumb. Sure you might be able to get past this thing on backwater worlds, but never the capitol of a house.
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