For long time it has been a nice idea of a Rework of the Crusier class ships
Here is the tick
Crusiers actually possess a extremely variety of guns and range like having 2K+ range on every gun, lets be real, while crusiers are converted to be more agile (i am thankfully for it) we forgot the issues have a battlecrusier, which should be the opposite, Battlecrusiers as name indicates, are meant to Battle, Tank and Counter the Crusiers and Destroyers (that is why is called actually a Battlecrusier) ... but with the lack of guns available at disposal (before a Battlecrusier could use Crusier guns with a Mix of some Prims and only few as secondary battleship type)
Have you seen the range? His secondaries have 1.5K of range which makes useless against Destroyers/Crusiers (and seriously with only low amount of guns available) the issue is just that ...
Let's put a battle in example ... (Every with 4x Armor Upgrade)
Triumph Gallic Destroyer vs Obstinate Gallic Battlecrusier
Gallic Destroyer have to shoot 12 Guns (3 of them being Heavy and some heavy are seriously heavy for any ship) at disposal
Gallic Battlecrusier have to shoot in the same range 6 Guns (4 Prims + 2 Heavy) guns which of course are slower than the enemy counterpart
Statistically the Destroyer have almost every match to win and here are the reasons:
1.- Destroyer could evade more thanks to faster impulse speed, thruster speed and being sleeky (which is fine because that is how IRWL are to be meant, agile and damn dangerous)
2.- Destroyer possess Shield Upgrades (Which is fine, is nice addition seriously that is how is meant to be)
3.- Destroyer have 12 Guns with 2K of Range (but 3 of them can reach to literally 2.8K of range with ease)
4.- Crusier possess 2'880,000 units of Armor Health + 275,000 units of Shield + 45,000 units of Shield
What about the Battlecrusier?
1.- Battlecrusier have a disadvantage here having only 6 Guns available with a range of 2K or more (Cerberus have 1900 of range, Breaker have 2.5K but is damn slow, Mortar is heavy energy consumption) leaving the ship with only 4 guns to handle rightfully to counter a pretty agile ship
2.- Battlecrusier have a shield that is moderately heavier than crusier counterpart, but easily breakable that have only 100K more than crusier counterparts (375,000 units of Shield)
3.- Battlecrusier have 5'400,000 units of Armor Health, but that remain useless if the destroyer equip a merely "basic dps setup", armor remains as paper in it.
4.- For some strange reason every battlecrusier i have played i feel it need range ... after all his guns are meant to be heavier ...
Uses to each ship
- In the past the Gunboat were to counter the Fighter or Bomber groups (Never worked seriously, but the idea has been improved a little bit at this day)
- The Destroyers and Crusiers are meant to destroy battleships which supposed don't have the ability to defend against smaller treats, remember Destroyers and Crusiers are supposed to be build for Speed and use a Hit n' Run Tactic (In the past with the guns having almost 900-1300 of range make it really dead point cause you can only support with EMP Guns and heavies, not participate in battle like we can do now, thanks for the feedback of everyone wanted this change)
- The battlecrusier class are supposed to meant and defend the Battleship/Carrier fleets against crusiers why? because that is how they called, "BATTLECRUSIERS" they are not meant for Speed, but to Battle against ships a larger ship are unable to even reach but right now, the battlecrusier class is just outclassed by Crusiers, that is why i feel the Battlecrusier needs an improvement like Destroyers had. While his enemies as crusiers have Speed, Agility and Smaller profiles (hit-boxes) the Battlecrusier should be able to counter them, but it can't, a destroyer just need keep a distance 2.1~K from any ship making the Battlecrusier almost unable to defend, the Battlecrusier can't Thrust as fast as crusier (it should not), can't use Guns due slower speed (and when the gun should reach the crusier have advantage due normal impulse speed and the battlecrusier guns are damn slow as battleship primaries), the Battlecrusier can't unleash firepower (as it should be) because only having 4 Primaries that deal little more damage to equal the 12 Crusier guns, but way more slower so any DPS advantage is actually lost, plus his secondaries with 1500 of range, if a DD get into secondary range, you could do a huge kick, but i belive they do to make you feel a little more entertained. And let's don't talk about the Solaris of each one, Battlecrusier lost again, so, seriously?
only 4 guns to beat a ship that usually have every advantage?
Bad idea ...
- What i would recommend to the Dev-Team and Balance Team -
Crusiers are damn perfect as they are right now, they are so funny, and is a pleasure to play with them, but can i request a balance for battlecrusier? i mean, they should fit in some way, do something in battles (cause right now are only small tankers of damage and maybe a counter for ... erhm ... gunboats maybe and just maybe a bomber who dare get in your range of secondaries with again, are patethic in lot of ways that even the secondaries on a destroyer are more dangerous and faster ... (really?)
Some people will not agree with me, but maybe some others will do ...
Where i take about this?
The wiki says the following (and i belive that is true)
Code:
-- Destroyers are lightly-powered cruiser-class vessels with two or less Class 6 Turrets. These ships have no choice but to squeeze the maximum benefit from their agility and Class 7 Turrets to take down enemy ships. Destroyers are particularly suited to eliminating Gunboats, since they have similar speed but much more firepower and significantly more hull strength. Against other ships in the cruiser class, Destroyers must take advantage of their agility to exploit weaknesses in the enemy's weapon coverage. Destroyers can also perform anti-cap functions by utilizing long-range artillery, but are likely to be obliterated if they get in range of the opponent.
-- Cruisers are the middle-weight ships in the cruiser class, being stronger than Destroyers in overall power and armaments, but with more speed and agility than any of the Battlecruisers. Some of the smaller ships in this sub-class can be quite agile, or have a shape that makes them hard to hit. Meanwhile, some of the larger Heavy Cruisers are on par with Battlecruisers in terms of overall damage output potential.
-- Battlecruisers are the heaviest ships in the Cruiser class, combining Battleship-level firepower with Cruiser performance. These ships are often used as Battleship-killers, since they can sit at range and return fire, while also avoiding damage themselves, and using thrusters to speed away if things turn sour. However, most battlecruisers have slower thrusting speed than other ships in the cruiser class, which exposes them to increased risk from Bombers and other cruisers, especially as their size limits them to repairs at shipyards, with modern nanobots unable to cope with the sheer mass of vessel to repair mid-combat.
Battlecrusier Definition tell as follows : Battlecruisers are a unique type of vessel that has a smaller displacement than Battleships but have a larger displacement than Cruisers, generally armed with battleship-caliber guns and a minimal amount of torpedo launchers
Crusier Definition tell as follows : Cruisers are large surface warship built for high speed and great cruising radius, capable of not only defending its own fleet and coastlines but also threatening those of the enemy.
Destroyer Definition tell as follows : In naval terminology, a destroyer is a fast, manoeuvrable, long-endurance warship intended to escort larger vessels in a fleet, convoy or battle group and defend them against powerful short range attackers.
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Yes, this isn't a Naval Terminology in Freelancer, but if we use the name convention then there should be a reason!
Why not bring the Battlecrusiers some love? dunno, a Battle Razor for Battlecrusiers, more weapons to use (cause is too limited in difference a crusier and even his code weapons) more versatility, make then punchier following some designations, or bring them back as they were in the past, able to use some crusiers and battleship guns with all the disadvantages it involves of using them.
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I will just leave this as a memorial of something should be done too, You did a really good path in rework the crusiers and destroyers, now is the turn of some of the ships that Discovery Freelancer and his Community has forgot they ever exist (See how much players play with crusiers compared to the battlecrusier class, you find some way of 8:1)
Have nice day
(Just because i really hate not put an image in my post in this cases, i will just leave ... hmm ... this one)
(01-07-2023, 03:48 AM)Glaceau-SW Wrote: they should fit in some way, do something in battles (cause right now are only small tankers of damage and maybe a counter for ... erhm ... gunboats maybe and just maybe a bomber who dare get in your range of secondaries with again, are patethic in lot of ways that even the secondaries on a destroyer are more dangerous and faster ... (really?)
A fair sentiment, but also one-tapping bombers with hellbore-primary because their guns are melee weapons is fun.
I'll do something about my superiority complex when I cease to be superior.
"Whatever happened to catchin' a good old-fashioned passionate ass-whoopin and gettin' your shoes, coat, and your hat tooken?"
bro thinks the class that can currently punch down AND punch up with varying degrees of success needs love while gunboats still exist in their current state
battlecruiser secondaries are also (number wise) much better at dealing with smaller ships than cruiser secondaries, and will also badoodle cruisers inside of their range as well
for example
liberty cruiser secondaries are 1000ms with a range of 2000, BCr is 1300ms with a range of 1500
liberty cruiser dps is 7482, BCr is 8820
with the benefit of doubling your armor, i also dont need to depend on strafing, dodging, or evading, and can simply thrust at you in a straight line, negating (most of) your impulse/thruster speed
the main issue is when you get cruisers like the Scylla with a huge number of secondaries and a giant powercore, but theyre going to have to point themselves at my battlecruiser if they want to use them all
i havent shot at cruisers for a little while in my battlecruiser, but i dont recall being beaten by one yet. im sure someone out there can do it
that said the gallic battlecruiser is a "Light" battlecruiser, and its always been sort of a lemon of a ship that abused kiting instead of standup fights and has been pretty subpar for a long time. try the liberty or nomad battlecruisers for a while
Cruisers are far from perfect, and they have recently undergone a rework that practically turned their gameplay upside down, and the difference is drastic as it now stands.
Your post appears to have been made based solely on stats of both classes and perhaps - some PvE experience which isn't quite... representative - due to specifics of NPCs like infinite powercore, motion patterns that are completely different to that a player would generally use.
Most of cruiser heavy weapons, with the exception of Tachyon Lance are high risk - high yield weapons, as said above: due to their limited angles you must face your opponent learns to take the cruiser's inertia into account it is much more likely to tear you to shreds, even in a battleship. And as I tested with @Thunderer as cruiser and myself as battlecruiser: the latter outthrusts the prior by a good margin on a straight course. This situation won't be happening often but if it does - a battlecruiser will have the upper hand.
And trust me, in fleet fights, battlecruisers still have a role to play, and, as far as a player knows what to do or quickly adapts - it'll at least have adequate chances to go toe to toe with a cruiser, and come out victorious.
Peace, being the distant dream it is, comes inevitably, and goes hand in hand with justice.
Cursed be the war. Heroes never die! @Vitoniz30
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