I based my numbers off the siege I witnessed, the CR siege of the core 2 base.
Yes, I did take into account the heightened rate of which bases are fixed, but also the heightened consumption rate.
Like a sugar rush, the supplies load in to repair under siege but as 50k of Hull Panels(100k space), 50K Robotic Hardware and 80k of Reinforced alloy would be eaten very quickly to compensate for said load, the base would then be "empty" and as a result not repair at all. the end result being a core 4 base under new rules will pop in less than half the time a core 2 base would have under current rules whilst under seige.
Was there also any comment on the time is takes to supply an unlawful base under new rules? The time to earn the credits to even purchase said supplies? You can say that it's meant to be a team effort with things, but 7/8 days supply with a stock-up in case of siege taking over 16 hours, even with 32 players doing 30 mins each.(unfortunately doesn't split like this even if the whole server activity was to chip in time to a single base)
All that to be popped by 12 dreadnaughts in less than 7 hours? That totally ignores the millions of units, input time for vast levels of in game time and timestamped forum-posted RP required to get a base to that core level to begin with.
If this is the case, only DTR making up the vast majority of logged server time are able to run a PoB due to the sheer numbers required to do so, unless of course they have multiple people sinking a few hours a day as their entire play time purely to supply it.
Please correct me if this understanding is wrong. I'd really love to be wrong.
A damaged Base, regardless of whether it is sieged or not, will use:
Core 1 = 8,640 of each RM per day
Core 2 = 17,280 of each RM per day
Core 3 = 25,920 of each RM per day
Core 4 = 34,560 of each RM per day
I think your workings out are totally way off.
Old Setting Wrote:Core 2 = 600 million hps
Repair Rate (RR) = 2000 x 3 Repair Materials (RMs) x 2 (Core Level) = 12,000 hps per 20 seconds (Repair Tick)
W&T Damage = 600 + (600 x Core Level) = 1,800 per 120 seconds.
Lets say it is being sieged by 5 BSs with 3 Cerbs each.
First we will look at the first BS:
This is based on that with 3 Cerbs (45k per sec) firing at a Base (with shield) will be doing 182,250 damage per minute (taking it that it only fires 45 seconds of that minute) (45,000 x 3 (number of Cerbs) x 45 (effective firing time) x 3% (shield absorbs 97% of damage).
So for the the W&T to be factored in to this, the damage taken by the Base after 2 minutes (120 seconds) = (182,250 x 2) + 1,800 (W&T) = 366,300.
The Base, in that same 2 minutes, will repair 12,000 x 6 (20 seconds repair ticks) = 72,000 hps
So, the first BS overcomes the RR and effectively does 294,300 damage to the Base.
Seeing as the 1st BS has ovecome the RR, the other 4 BSs will do their full damage of 366,300 x 4 = 1,465,200 damage every 2 minutes
So the Base will take 1,465,200 + 294,300 = 1,759,500 damage every 2 minutes
Which equates to: 52.785 million hps per hour.
With a starting value of 600 million, the Base would last about 11.4 hours.
New Settings Wrote:Core 2 = 600 million hps
Repair Rate (RR) =6000 x 3 Repair Materials (RMs) x 2 (Core Level) = 36,000 hps per 20 seconds (Repair Tick)
W&T Damage = 600 + (600 x Core Level) = 1,800 per 20 seconds.
So for the the W&T to be factored in to this, the damage taken by the Base after 2 minutes (120 seconds) = (182,250 x 2) + (1,800 x 6) (W&T) = 375,300.
The Base, in that same 2 minutes, will repair 36,000 x 6 (20 seconds repair ticks) = 216,000 hps
So, the first BS overcomes the RR and effectively does 159,300 damage to the Base.
Seeing as the 1st BS has ovecome the RR, the other 4 BSs will do their full damage of 366,300 x 4 = 1,465,200 damage every 2 minutes
So the Base will take 1,465,200 + 159,300 = 1,624,500 damage every 2 minutes
Which equates to: 48.735 million hps per hour.
With a starting value of 600 million, the Base would last about 12.3 hours.
So, with the new RR & W&T damage numbers, your Base will still use the same amount of RMs, if seiged, in a 24 hour period, but will last nearly an hour longer.
'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are' Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person
I based my numbers off the siege I witnessed, the CR siege of the core 2 base.
Yes, I did take into account the heightened rate of which bases are fixed, but also the heightened consumption rate.
Like a sugar rush, the supplies load in to repair under siege but as 50k of Hull Panels(100k space), 50K Robotic Hardware and 80k of Reinforced alloy would be eaten very quickly to compensate for said load, the base would then be "empty" and as a result not repair at all. the end result being a core 4 base under new rules will pop in less than half the time a core 2 base would have under current rules whilst under seige.
Was there also any comment on the time is takes to supply an unlawful base under new rules? The time to earn the credits to even purchase said supplies? You can say that it's meant to be a team effort with things, but 7/8 days supply with a stock-up in case of siege taking over 16 hours, even with 32 players doing 30 mins each.(unfortunately doesn't split like this even if the whole server activity was to chip in time to a single base)
All that to be popped by 12 dreadnaughts in less than 7 hours? That totally ignores the millions of units, input time for vast levels of in game time and timestamped forum-posted RP required to get a base to that core level to begin with.
If this is the case, only DTR making up the vast majority of logged server time are able to run a PoB due to the sheer numbers required to do so, unless of course they have multiple people sinking a few hours a day as their entire play time purely to supply it.
Please correct me if this understanding is wrong. I'd really love to be wrong.
A damaged Base, regardless of whether it is sieged or not, will use:
Core 1 = 8,640 of each RM per day
Core 2 = 17,280 of each RM per day
Core 3 = 25,920 of each RM per day
Core 4 = 34,560 of each RM per day
My apologies as I didn't have all the numbers presented.
That actually makes things worse.
So in essence, although "capable" of decent levels of repair at Core 4, you expect players to have capacity within their base AND have previously hauled 34560 units of Hull Panels (for 17280 actual items), plus another 34560 of Robotic Hardware/Reinforced Alloy?
69,120 units in stock purely to repair for an inevitable death anyway.
PLUS the daily: 8700 something?(doesn’t go up in core levels, same for all?)
PLUS the Shield fuel: 15,000
PLUS the daily F/O/W- for ease people usually stock 15k of each generally so 45,000
137,820 items to last ‘One day’ siege. (One day of each repair material, the general amount of stock for f/o/w players keep, one day of wear and tear alloy & the general amount of shield fuel stored)
A core two base, assuming it has only storage modules boasts a maximum of 190,000 units of space. (Slot 6 used for hopeful core upgrade) it can store around 5 days worth of wear and tear supplies.
This means that to die from a siege as presented in your case here:
(04-03-2023, 05:50 PM)St.Denis Wrote:
New Settings Wrote:Core 2 = 600 million hps
Repair Rate (RR) =6000 x 3 Repair Materials (RMs) x 2 (Core Level) = 36,000 hps per 20 seconds (Repair Tick)
W&T Damage = 600 + (600 x Core Level) = 1,800 per 20 seconds.
So for the the W&T to be factored in to this, the damage taken by the Base after 2 minutes (120 seconds) = (182,250 x 2) + (1,800 x 6) (W&T) = 375,300.
The Base, in that same 2 minutes, will repair 36,000 x 6 (20 seconds repair ticks) = 216,000 hps
So, the first BS overcomes the RR and effectively does 159,300 damage to the Base.
Seeing as the 1st BS has ovecome the RR, the other 4 BSs will do their full damage of 366,300 x 4 = 1,465,200 damage every 2 minutes
So the Base will take 1,465,200 + 159,300 = 1,624,500 damage every 2 minutes
Which equates to: 48.735 million hps per hour.
With a starting value of 600 million, the Base would last about 12.3 hours.
So, with the new RR & W&T damage numbers, your Base will still use the same amount of RMs, if seiged, in a 24 hour period, but will last nearly an hour longer.
A core 2 fully stocked/up to health base would take 12.3 hours to pop for five players.
Even if you have everyone on the server piling in to help fill it before the siege starts.
It gets worse...
Your example uses Cerbs? and only Five battleships? Primary issue is that even WITH the increased rate of repair, a lone battleship overpowers the repairs?
The CR siege had 12 Dreds with Siege Turrets, plus a whole host of BAF/Liberty ships chipping in to help.
The LN indie forces had 10 Dreds plus carriers attacking a core 1 base a few days ago.
The amount of space available doesn't allow for players even as a group to stock up weekly plus constantly be on the lookout for the attack declaration thread.
Under reality, a core 2 would last about 4/5 hours at best with that many players attacking, right?
Heavy edit:
I got the numbers vastly wrong which is why I’ve edited this post. I initially thought PoB’s wouldn’t even have the capacity to store the goods to outlast a siege for the time period in Denis’s example.
It now shows they do, but the ‘faster repairs’ don’t actually count for anything.
Have I also got it wrong that daily wear and tear in Reinforced Alloy takes the same amount across all cores just to exist?
(04-03-2023, 11:44 PM)Chenzo- Wrote: Lots of things.
Sieging of Bases hasn't really changed over the years.
It has always been that the more BSs you use to siege, the quicker it goes down. This is why people have woken up in the morning to find their Base no longer exists.
If you care to read Haste's Post: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...pid2288357
You will see that he mentions that the siege mechanics will be looked in to. Whether anything comes of it, only time will tell.
As for your example of stored supplies on a Core 2 Base, I do question why you want to store so much on it.
Quote:PLUS the daily: 8700 something?(doesn’t go up in core levels, same for all?)
PLUS the Shield fuel: 15,000
PLUS the daily F/O/W- for ease people usually stock 15k of each generally so 45,000
Why, on a Core 2, would you want to store 19 days of FOW?
As for fuel:
Quote:The fuel usage rates are
Deuterium - 4 units per 16 seconds
H-Fuel - 3 units per 16 seconds
MOX - 2 units per 16 seconds
Thorium MOX - 2 units per 16 seconds
Promethene - 2 units per 16 seconds
I believe that it is per 20 seconds, but we will use the 16 seconds for now.
For Mox, 5000 = 2500 ticks
2500 x16 = 11.1 hours.
if it is indeed per 20 seconds, then 5k = 13.9 hours
Your Base will be dead, with a concerted attack, long before you run out of 15k of fuel.
Hint: A little thought out or even used idea.
Extra cheap storage for Bases, if you want to store extra Mox, Repair Materials etc
A 5ker costs somewhere in the region of 150-200 million.
You can buy about 10 Percherons (2.5k hold), or similar sized ships, for about 130-150 million. Total storage capacity 25k.
That would allow you to keep 5k of Fuel on the Base, 10k on the ships and 15k for storing of extra Repair Materials or what ever you want.
Quote:Have I also got it wrong that daily wear and tear in Reinforced Alloy takes the same amount across all cores just to exist?
No, you are not wrong.
'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are' Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person
(04-03-2023, 11:44 PM)Chenzo- Wrote: Lots of things.
Sieging of Bases hasn't really changed over the years.
It has always been that the more BSs you use to siege, the quicker it goes down. This is why people have woken up in the morning to find their Base no longer exists.
If you care to read Haste's Post: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...pid2288357
You will see that he mentions that the siege mechanics will be looked in to. Whether anything comes of it, only time will tell.
As for your example of stored supplies on a Core 2 Base, I do question why you want to store so much on it.
Quote:PLUS the daily: 8700 something?(doesn’t go up in core levels, same for all?)
PLUS the Shield fuel: 15,000
PLUS the daily F/O/W- for ease people usually stock 15k of each generally so 45,000
Why, on a Core 2, would you want to store 19 days of FOW?
As for fuel:
Quote:The fuel usage rates are
Deuterium - 4 units per 16 seconds
H-Fuel - 3 units per 16 seconds
MOX - 2 units per 16 seconds
Thorium MOX - 2 units per 16 seconds
Promethene - 2 units per 16 seconds
I believe that it is per 20 seconds, but we will use the 16 seconds for now.
For Mox, 5000 = 2500 ticks
2500 x16 = 11.1 hours.
if it is indeed per 20 seconds, then 5k = 13.9 hours
Your Base will be dead, with a concerted attack, long before you run out of 15k of fuel.
Hint: A little thought out or even used idea.
Extra cheap storage for Bases, if you want to store extra Mox, Repair Materials etc
A 5ker costs somewhere in the region of 150-200 million.
You can buy about 10 Percherons (2.5k hold), or similar sized ships, for about 130-150 million. Total storage capacity 25k.
That would allow you to keep 5k of Fuel on the Base, 10k on the ships and 15k for storing of extra Repair Materials or what ever you want.
Quote:Have I also got it wrong that daily wear and tear in Reinforced Alloy takes the same amount across all cores just to exist?
No, you are not wrong.
Thank you for clarifying/confirming all of the above across multiple posts. Also, advising of the fuel on shields- that's an eye opener in itself. Also the f/o/w.
Is there a reason why a core 4 requires the same amount of wear and tear materials as a core one? Should this not be staggered accordingly?
Also, can you share the core intensions of these changes by the admin/dev/staff teams? I haven't seen that anywhere so far.
The Team was always onboard with Zentor's changes. All active developers agree on a fact that the PoB gameplay should be more balanced than it is now and gameplay options expanded. However, these changes are not being implemented by Zentor, but by other staff members and contributors.
Ores were to be reduced initially, but in the middle of development process, it was decided to keep them around anyway. That is a prime example of why leaks by former staff members and other sources are counter-productive and even at odds with what is happening if the patch is still WIP. And should we be fully transparent as some players want, the community could be easily confused and even discouraged by our constantly changing plans and other adjustments. The development is an organic process thanks to the discussions we have and not everything is set in stone.
We thank you for your patience.
In order to make POB owners cooperate and create a much more dynamic community surrounding POB's, I personally believe that Mining, POB Ores Refining and POB materials production should be greatly EXPANDED.
Metals and materials needed for the recipes used by factory modules to create the items currently sold should need to be mined and refined, or collected and manufactured, into the many alloys and other materials needed like Critical Temperature alloy, Super Alloy, High Performance Alloy, etc. Their availability at NPC bases should be reduced and be more expensive than the prevailing price for POB refinery created metals and materials, so that there is always a potential supply as needed until POB enterprises can get started. But also a reason to do business with other POB's.
If POB owners with factory modules were able to get their needed materials from a POB owner who produced them, it would add PURPOSE to the existence of those POB's.
Not to mention, this is a space simulation game, and this is exactly how things would work IRL in a place/situation like Sirius.
Refinery POB owners would pay miners to mine and deliver raw materials which they use to create the materials needed by Factory POB owners to make their products. Transporters get employed to deliver these resources as needed. and a great deal of commerce is created to the benefit of all parties, including the unlawfuls.
Yes, I'm saying that most or all resources needed to upgrade bases and build products in POB factory modules should be created using recipes at POB refineries and other POB factory modules.
Factories that can BUILD Optronic Arrays, Hull Segments, Robotic Hardware. Etc
But they need the services of other POB's who secure the necessary resources and create the raw materials needed by those factories. POB owners would then be able to carve out a niche in these supply chains.
Imagine there being ACTUAL factions of Mining Corps, Refining Concerns and Transport Companies again.
Imagine there being a real reason for a prodigious POB population.
Imagine having a POB that does something other than building the same Dozen damn products that everyone else does and not having to compete with 214 bases who all build the exact same stuff as you do.
This point is, in fact, what makes POB's suck.
This would be a large and time consuming change to make, but I can't even envision there being sound arguments against it, other than not wanting to do the work involved to make the Discovery Mod generally awesome and POB ownership actually meaningful.
And, to the point of the work involved, I myself am not useless at modding and was assisting in a planned rework of the economy in the Excelsia mod when it kinda imploded suddenly and died out.
(yes, I'm that old)
I fervently hope to initiate a meaningful discussion into the mechanics and feasibility of this concept.
User was banned for: Possibly compromised account.
The Team was always onboard with Zentor's changes. All active developers agree on a fact that the PoB gameplay should be more balanced than it is now and gameplay options expanded. However, these changes are not being implemented by Zentor, but by other staff members and contributors.
Ores were to be reduced initially, but in the middle of development process, it was decided to keep them around anyway. That is a prime example of why leaks by former staff members and other sources are counter-productive and even at odds with what is happening if the patch is still WIP. And should we be fully transparent as some players want, the community could be easily confused and even discouraged by our constantly changing plans and other adjustments. The development is an organic process thanks to the discussions we have and not everything is set in stone.
We thank you for your patience.
In order to make POB owners cooperate and create a much more dynamic community surrounding POB's, I personally believe that Mining, POB Ores Refining and POB materials production should be greatly EXPANDED.
Metals and materials needed for the recipes used by factory modules to create the items currently sold should need to be mined and refined, or collected and manufactured, into the many alloys and other materials needed like Critical Temperature alloy, Super Alloy, High Performance Alloy, etc. Their availability at NPC bases should be reduced and be more expensive than the prevailing price for POB refinery created metals and materials, so that there is always a potential supply as needed until POB enterprises can get started. But also a reason to do business with other POB's.
If POB owners with factory modules were able to get their needed materials from a POB owner who produced them, it would add PURPOSE to the existence of those POB's.
Not to mention, this is a space simulation game, and this is exactly how things would work IRL in a place/situation like Sirius.
Refinery POB owners would pay miners to mine and deliver raw materials which they use to create the materials needed by Factory POB owners to make their products. Transporters get employed to deliver these resources as needed. and a great deal of commerce is created to the benefit of all parties, including the unlawfuls.
Yes, I'm saying that most or all resources needed to upgrade bases and build products in POB factory modules should be created using recipes at POB refineries and other POB factory modules.
Factories that can BUILD Optronic Arrays, Hull Segments, Robotic Hardware. Etc
But they need the services of other POB's who secure the necessary resources and create the raw materials needed by those factories. POB owners would then be able to carve out a niche in these supply chains.
Imagine there being ACTUAL factions of Mining Corps, Refining Concerns and Transport Companies again.
Imagine there being a real reason for a prodigious POB population.
Imagine having a POB that does something other than building the same Dozen damn products that everyone else does and not having to compete with 214 bases who all build the exact same stuff as you do.
This point is, in fact, what makes POB's suck.
This would be a large and time consuming change to make, but I can't even envision there being sound arguments against it, other than not wanting to do the work involved to make the Discovery Mod generally awesome and POB ownership actually meaningful.
And, to the point of the work involved, I myself am not useless at modding and was assisting in a planned rework of the economy in the Excelsia mod when it kinda imploded suddenly and died out.
(yes, I'm that old)
I fervently hope to initiate a meaningful discussion into the mechanics and feasibility of this concept.
When I first read Zentor's original plans for refineries, this is exactly what I hoped for. I even built a Junker base in preparation for it. Had plans to build Manifolds with Premium Scrap from Texas to sell from the station in the hopes that they'd be used for resources on stations for either upkeep or for constructing other factories. I hope it still does because this seems like it'd be a lot fun and closer to a living, breathing, world and bases would serve more of a purpose than just factories and places for storage.
I sold the station long ago to someone interested in using it for their own plans, but if this came to pass I could totally see spinning up something similar or buying back my old base for it. Would love to really get immersed in being a Junker trolling the fields looking for scrap metal to build items for others!
When I first read Zentor's original plans for refineries, this is exactly what I hoped for. I even built a Junker base in preparation for it. Had plans to build Manifolds with Premium Scrap from Texas to sell from the station in the hopes that they'd be used for resources on stations for either upkeep or for constructing other factories. I hope it still does because this seems like it'd be a lot fun and closer to a living, breathing, world and bases would serve more of a purpose than just factories and places for storage.
I sold the station long ago to someone interested in using it for their own plans, but if this came to pass I could totally see spinning up something similar or buying back my old base for it. Would love to really get immersed in being a Junker trolling the fields looking for scrap metal to build items for others!
It would absolutely Rock if this could possibly happen.
It's a LOT of work, but Disco would never be the same again in an awesome way, IMO.
User was banned for: Possibly compromised account.
What Mr Jameson wrote there was genuinely awesome- if this was part of Zenator's plans then Kudos to him too. Never knew that person or Mr Jameson to be fair.
At present, the idea of owning a PoB is that you'd need multiple people for it to exist in the first place, let alone have the player activity to do any of that.
There's also a hell of a lot more that PoB's do than what you guys suggested above- but I do love that idea. Such changes would make lawful PoB's even more than what they are.
I understand lots of Pobs may be the problem but what about those guys who can only play on Saturday Sundays.. 5days of reserve supply means 50-60k .. those who have level 2 bases or less will have big problem supporting it ..
My request is make the storage modules bigger at least 60k to 80k ..
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