Deterrence [DTR] - Feedback

[Eternal.Journey]

Lemme address the uh "Not Balanced" Quote, here, first:

WhaT are you smoking, the fight wasn't even to start with lol

Dtr did bring waaay too many caps tho

1x Persephone, 1x Aux Bustard, 2x Militants Cruisers, 1x Aux GB, 1x FL GB, 4x Aux snubs, 1x FL snub. Before DTR showed up, these were the Humanity side of the fight, that i was able to track. Total: 4 caps, 2 GB, 5 snubs.
1x Ish'tar, 1x Bustard, 1x Cruiser, 4x GB, 5x Snubs. Total: 3 caps, 4 GB, 5 snubs.

That to me sounds about as even as you can get. (Correct my numbers here if you want, there may be one or two not accounted for.)

For Reference the two images below are 9 ships (one is a bomber) shooting at 2 VHF:



This is a horrible experience to give someone. Instead of pulling out, like the remaining Aux, the FL snub and One DTR Cruiser that didn't even join the "Fight" did (Shoutout to you, Divine Shield for sitting out, kudos to you), you let loose your big ships onto two fighters.

In the Screenshots above (after most of our snub force left to grab caps to actually have some semblance of a fun fight) we can see that 5 DTR decided they would drop a force of capitals on two lone snubs. I would address the uh, previous 1v8 but that's had enough attention both here and in Discord.
(the above screenshots shows that the same ships that blew up our Bustard moved in on the snubcraft afterwards. The Militant Cruiser pulled out of the snub beating. Kudos to you, whoever you are, for that.)

Below is, in my opinion, the biggest issue DTR has.

Criticism: No effort or intent for DTR to play fair.

Explanation of Criticism: This is a regular occurrence. not once, not twice, not even like once a month. This is getting to like. every week, sometimes numerous times a week. How long has it been happening? Well, since before i joined. 5 days into my discovery Journey, I happened to experience my first time of this. 2v3 in Delta, 2 nomad snubs vs 2 snubs and a freighter. Was a fun fight, became friends with two of the ones involved in that. This fight, after it was already decided (We 2 aliens were losing, big skill issue on my part), was greeted by TEN DTR Capital warships. Assorted Cruisers, BC and BSes (mostly cruisers cause 5.0 was Busted Cruiser Patch lol). Since that day, I have seen much of the same with you guys. Alotta the time I take myself away from combat to avoid the sheer overlog that keeps happening.

Recently, DTR E-Chat has been pinged for numerous separate encounters. A Lone Bomber in Theta, Lone Cruisers in Theta (separate instances of singular ships), Lone whatever, in Omicrons where people seem to think someone is coming for them. On each and every one of these encounters, DTR logged masses of ships. Theres Video proof, and many numerous screenshots of DTR not being sportsmanlike throughout the months, at least that I have seen posted from various sources who had the "Joy" of fighting these hopeless scenarios.

Several conversations with both HC and members in Discord, in mostly neutral manners have turned up some bleak results. The latest being Insults thrown my way, and in the direction of friends. These people know who they are, and know I have shared some of these postings with others, alongside the conversations I have had before. There's Quite physically no words to describe how the words struck a very hostile cord in me, because of the Real Life difficulties I play with these pixels to escape. Humphress is the only one who I talked with who actually felt like my criticisms were understood and accepted as needing to be worked on. Kudos to you, Humphress.

Solution: Curb the dumping of caps onto snubs for a start. That's not fun for the snubs at all. It hurts your Reputation. Whether this is the 2 snub vs 8 caps +1 bomber in Delta, or a 1 bomber vs 1 bomber, 1 freighter and 1gb in Theta, or snub brawl of 9 + 1gb v 8 + 3 gbs + 3 Battlecruisers and 1 Legate in Omega 48, or a small 2v3 thats already decided, gaining 10 caps that have zero right or place to be involved. Fix this, before you lose what remaining respect some people outside of DTR still hold for you. This is non-negotiable. Its genuinely not fun for the snubbers involved, no mater what skill they have, be they a Novice or an Ace.

This is your biggest fault as a faction. Fix that, and I'm sure the community will start to respect you a good bit more because of it. If you don't change it, you will quickly find that the hate will mature and grow into a vendetta, so much so that more and more will either actively log in organised fights against you, or not bother playing at all near you. Its already showing. Many people have both said and done as much already. I know what Ravenna has said about overlogging, and that was probably fine while the server population daily was higher but in todays player count, its going to kill the game. I would go into more detail on this too, but I think it best to address one major issue at a time. That way, it gives you more chance to change and react on your own, based off what is clearly growing server-wide concerns.

Hopefully this helps you to understand, and I also hope this constructive rant will be responded with equally constructive return posts about said criticisms.

[Fab]

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Community Rules

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1. General Conduct:
   
   1.0 - Don't be a dick. It's a game, try to keep it fun for everyone playing it. Behavior that falls within the technical letter of the rules but not the spirit won't be tolerated.

I think PvP etiquette can in fact sink to such depths that it starts violating this rule. In fact, I'm afraid it already has. I think instead of further escalating things, we should do some introspection, and try to all do better in the future. Everyone makes mistakes, but let's not start making them intentionally.

understandable, as it goes both ways. back in 2022 when I was put in charge of the training (along with others) I made a hard push for etiquette and an increase in the faction's standards, it was disheartening to tell our anxious and freshly recruited new members they're not allowed to fight because indies or some of us were already fighting. explaining why they needed to disengage was even harder, as this behavior only happens in this game and none other. their effort and enthusiasm to log for their new faction was just put down the drain. I had no answer to "Indie has less limitations" - and that's true.

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[Antonio]

Freelancer isn’t a competitive game. There is no ranked ladder to balance skill or numbers, nor are there high stakes (barring sieges) or punishment upon death. You lose a bit of ammo, that's it. You don't win anything tangible either. You don't flip Lichtenfelde Complex to the Corsair IFF if you gank the enemy out of existence.

We’re a small community where everyone knows each other more or less. If we behave like dogs there won’t be anyone left. Fun (although I don’t see what’s fun about being the ganker - you have an easy win with no challenge) at the expense of other people’s fun is a net negative. All you do is poison the well and encourage the ganked side to return the favor, or avoid playing with you until you have no one to play with.

The only way I see the situation improving is if active PvP faction leaders/HC members take responsibility to improve the status quo. You may not be able to stop 5 indies to gank 2 ships, but you can pull out your 5 faction members from participating in a 10v2. You can type "/gs EnemyGroup" and roughly estimate numbers. You can PM the other side. If you cannot do any of these things, that goes within the scope of your responsibility as a faction. Indies are another can of worms that needs addressing, but we seem to not even be able to keep (official) factions in check before getting to the indies.

This doesn't go for DTR only, nor is it targeted at DTR specifically. Most OFs have a bad PvP etiquette outside of scheduled fights. How often do you see people voluntarily sit out when they see the enemy is getting rolled? It used to be a daily occurrence when fighting certain factions/people. "If you want a fair fight go to Conn" is the worst take one can make in a game with no matchmaking.

Edit: A fitting discord quote that a community member wrote:

Nobody has ever made the game more fun by participating in the good old Ganking Doom Spiral
It has never worked and will never work
Can you really say to yourself "If we just gank them hard enough it'll make them stop ganking us" and believe it
It's like an arms race it just makes the game increasingly bad"

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SNAC Montage Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Thruster SNAC

[HUMPHRESS]

Hello, Divine Shield here ^^
@Eternal.Journey I actually thought numbers were equal going in, I did a /gs of the Auxo Group, and Wilde group, it looked like 12 v 13
Did I miss a seperate anti-alien group there? I thought that zoners were grouped with auxo, so maybe I didnt check something I shouldve.

Regardless; here are my views

1) DTR really should do better with this sometimes
2) I think the community should spend less time at each other throats about this, and just enjoy the damn game
3) The solution of forum events does exist, this doesnt completely excuse DTR, but its a fair point to say that the best way to balance is to employ those

Shit happens, and will continue to happen forever. DTR is also given unfair fights, and most of the time we are fighting players that are significantly more skilled then we are, though this is improving hence why I think we need to be more conscious about our etiquette going forward. I think that as a whole the community should try to care less about this stuff, its going to happen no matter what, and there are already some solutions to the problem at hand. The drama and strife around unfair fights makes people want to leave more then the fights themselves. I think that we should be more willing and open to laugh things off, and enjoy the best part of the community; the people in it.

Again, this isnt to say DTR doesnt have improvements to make; I think we should be more conscious about how we take fights. I want people to enjoy fighting us. DTR is plagued by the attitude of "they dont care when its done to us." I cant say that opinion is unfair.

My thoughts here are incredibly disjointed right now, I really cant properly phrase what I want to say here, so I am gonna let it go for now, I just want to say that I love this community and this game. I have met great people in here, and I enjoy talking and shooting with or at y'all. I reckon Ill be seeing you on the battlefield again soon enough, and I hope that is a better encounter.

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[Chxlls]

The issue with DTR fights is twofold:

1. The faction is made up of new or significantly less mechanically skilled players that make up for this with large numbers. This has been the core identity of the faction since its inception, as far as I’m aware. This makes fights an absolute nightmare to balance. If high-level players join the DTR side, it can become a complete shit-stomp because the numbers are even more overwhelming when there is more skill parity. If high-level players stack the other side, DTR gets face rolled due to the skill difference if numbers are even remotely close.

2. From what I saw when I was playing, it was actively discouraged within DTR to log the other side. I understand that DTR is a community and players want to play together, but a lot of times fights would be easier to balance and everyone would have more fun if players of ALL skill levels balanced things out. Aces bear the majority of the responsibility to balance fights, which I understand, but the reason that they have to is because players who are less-skilled are not held to the same standard, even though they can create the same problems that aces do. If a bunch of worse players are logged on one side, it makes it just as much of a balancing nightmare as it does when people stack aces on one side.

All that being said, DTR is a majority positive for this community, and seems to be the only group of players with any luck or skill at retaining new players. If more factions took the effort to recruit newer players, this wouldn’t be nearly as much as a problem. They generate a large amount of activity, and wishing they were unofficial or non-existent hurts everyone as a whole.

Back to my slumber

[monmarfori]

Discovery has its fair share of moments like these, and yet we see history repeating itself. Every faction (and player), not just DTR, has its own flaws. It's the inability to overcome them that makes things problematic and less fun to everyone involved.

If only people were responsible enough to accept their weaknesses and strengthen them, this wouldn't have caused outright drama.

[Levenna]

to be honest, I haven't read this entire thread, but DTR was genuinely a pleasant surprise during my time in their discord. Remarkably chill people who just have fun. More people should take on their mindset.

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[03.07.2024] LNS-Beast***: we can do this every day but you have to buy bigger stronger ships...and i'll help you

[Fab]

There is no ranked ladder to balance skill or numbers

True, yet some wants ranked competitive-levels of organization in the absolutely entropic nature of random skirmishes.

We’re a small community where everyone knows each other more or less.

This critical mass and the whole ordeal of "everyone knows each other" makes people think every right click is personal and made to grief others. 99.9% of the times it isn't. It's part of the problem. I've never heard of any other game where you're actually afraid of repercussions for playing the game/your id for pirating or shooting others.

You may not be able to stop 5 indies to gank 2 ships, but you can pull out your 5 faction members from participating in a 10v2.

This is one of my main points. You have much better peace of mind and face less (or no) criticism if you didn't fly a faction tag. This is why I tell people that if the DTR- tag didn't exist, such drama wouldn't exist either.

You can type "/gs EnemyGroup" and roughly estimate numbers.

What's funny about this is that we did exactly that before moving into delta, and the numbers were even. We also took into consideration zoner/auxo numbers. The same community that constantly repeats that DTR's skill level is extra low and how each of them is worth 2 DTR members are the same that complain DTR's numbers. Which one is it? Or is it what is most convenient at a time? DTR wins with more numbers -> DTR ganks. DTR loses with more numbers -> DTR sucks, I can take 3 of them at a time.

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[iiLeRoss]

There is no ranked ladder to balance skill or numbers

True, yet some wants ranked competitive-levels of organization in the absolutely entropic nature of random skirmishes.

We’re a small community where everyone knows each other more or less.

This critical mass and the whole ordeal of "everyone knows each other" makes people think every right click is personal and made to grief others. 99.9% of the times it isn't. It's part of the problem. I've never heard of any other game where you're actually afraid of repercussions for playing the game/your id for pirating or shooting others.

You may not be able to stop 5 indies to gank 2 ships, but you can pull out your 5 faction members from participating in a 10v2.

This is one of my main points. You have much better peace of mind and face less (or no) criticism if you didn't fly a faction tag. This is why I tell people that if the DTR- tag didn't exist, such drama wouldn't exist either.

You can type "/gs EnemyGroup" and roughly estimate numbers.

What's funny about this is that we did exactly that before moving into delta, and the numbers were even. We also took into consideration zoner/auxo numbers. The same community that constantly repeats that DTR's skill level is extra low and how each of them is worth 2 DTR members are the same that complain DTR's numbers. Which one is it? Or is it what is most convenient at a time? DTR wins with more numbers -> DTR ganks. DTR loses with more numbers -> DTR sucks, I can take 3 of them at a time.

There is a steep difference between a fleet being outnumbered by a relative margin and dropping a fleet onto lone ships.

[Kanzler Niemann]

Honestly, you people should be glad that DTR doesn't train coordination very well. From reading some of the comments, it seems like it happened for the first time that someone got ganked. Someone always will get ganked or get an unfair PVP situation. Get used to it, and stop crying. Anyone myself included posting in this thread has ganked in the past and still does.

Just stop doing it, get a grip on yourself.

Grown people acting like children lmao

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