' Wrote:I noticed someone wondering if plutonium could get improved profits by enforcing a Kishiro/GMG contract for it's transport. I just laughed.
Just to clarify, this was my response to that, and the general consensus of the GMG faction.
' Wrote:Also, (not speaking for the whole board) I have no interest in "enforcing" the "exclusive" contract by means of hostility to non-Kishiro hauling goods from GMG bases. Okinawa needs the commerce, and we won't send the DSE/Synth/IC/whomever transports home empty handed, because I wouldn't expect to see them again.
Fortunately, the Kishiro role players are responding positively to the constructive criticisms they have received.
So what do you suggest people do to increase corporations being more productive and better Nathan? Why would a guy join a corporation faction then?
He gains enemies as a bad thing, I am sure Lane Hacker should and will harm an Ageira trader more than harming an Indie trader. And Indie traders can certainly form an "un-corporated" faction and enjoy benefits such as convoys, hiring mercenaries and enjoying diplomacy treaties.
Corporation cannot offer anything higher then, since there's no Government to actually offer benefits to a Corporation as well. It was one of things I thought would increase the appeal of corporations. Since you disagree, and think restricting traders is a bad thing, I suppose you believe that Corsairs shouldn't pirate anyone who comes to Crete bringing commodities, because he's doing it to benefit Crete, and Corsairs shouldn't touch that, regardles of his affiliation.
If there is indeed a better way to make corporations more appealing (like one mentioned here before, with ID and affiliations having discounts) then I'll gladly take them because they harm noone and benefit everyone.
Isn't ageira's ID actually allowing them to do the action they did?
Quote:. If that is going to be the case, then my solution is very simple : I'll make sure that those commodities are not profitable enough to transport to attract interest from people who don't have a dedicated interest in transporting it.
I can't see how is lowering the profit form corporations commodities that have been "contracted" as an form of punishment any better than what I was trying to do.
Since everyone stands to lose alot if certain commodities are being contracted, then I guess I'll have to ask the money back and cancel the whole deal, since it's invalid roleplay and I won't do an invalid roleplay. And penalty for continuing it is severe.
@death's overtorture and rest (just a disclaimer)
I am exploring what possibilites I have, and my primary goal is to roleplay within common sense rules and benefits of entire playerbase. That is why I ask things like this and why things are discussed here before action has been taken. It is not in our interest to whore out, and we certainly do respond to constructive criticism.
This is just my personal opinion, so nothing official here.
I started out as a freelancer trader on this server, and that's how I played for ages. Actually, that character still exists here as well.
Actually, the key thing for traders is quite simple. Don't allow people that aren't part of a corporation to actually fly the biggest ships. Now - when I'm saying that, I'm referring to actual faction members, or members of organized unofficial factions (aka ships with real tags). Then it's a case of who cares what the smaller indies are flying, since they're by design restricted to smaller ships.
Oh, wait - that sounds suspiciously like faction right #5 for restricting cap ships, doesn't it? Hmmm - wonder where I got the idea? :P
There's certainly no reason to actually restrict cargoes at all. Just make sure that the people flying the 4,500 plus corporate cargo hold ships actually are corporate pilots and quite honestly, not the powertraders that don't care about RP.
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
I guess thats already corrected with ID restriction as iKone pointed out.
That's ok, I still enjoy the corporate trading more, and while I know I did kick myself in the nuts by this (obviously) that some players exist out there that are still more keen or would at least like to try corporate trading.
We have enough to offer for now, as convoys, mercenary protection and corporate ships with 5k cargo, and ofcourse, shared ships like cargo containers that are there for members that can't afford their personal ship yet.
For now I'm sure this will do, but I repeat, I've got no regrets for posting this here, it's nice to know the community's viewpoint.
' Wrote:I'd like somebody to explain how only an extremely limited number of people being allowed to trade a commodity improves the roleplay situation for pirate factions which depend on the trading of a commodity for a substantial portion of their roleplay. How does it benefit LWB and the Farmer's Alliance if Synth Paste is barely traded? How does it benefit the Lane Hackers if Gate Lane Parts are barely traded? How does it benefit Gaians if Gaian Wildlife is barely traded? How would it benefit the Red Hessians if trade with Daumann stations was limited to Daumann ID's (keeping out Independent Trader IDs)?
The fact is that nobody benefits from restricting trade by restricting access to commodities. Traders don't benefit from it. Pirates who prey on trade don't benefit from it. Police and military who have fewer traders to escort or protect don't benefit from it. Even the people doing the restricting don't benefit from it. There is no practical or tangible benefit to anyone when trade is restricted.
But you know what? There is a lot of harm done by restricting trade. Just ask the Alster Union how much fun it's been to pirate in Bering and Hudson over the past 6 months while the LN and RM were doing everything they could to stop any traders from going into those systems. Creating a "dead zone" of no activity in a system or in the trading of a commodity benefits nobody, but it does harm to the other people who depend on a "live zone" for the their roleplay-reasons-to-exist.
I certainly support corporate trading, but doing anything to harm non-corporate trading along the same routes or in the same commodities is the wrong way to go about it. Doing harm to people only creates resentment and hostility, and an absence of the very thing you want to encourage. Why would anyone want to join an Ageira faction or use an Ageira ID when they've just gotten blown up as a result of Ageira's bounty against transporting Gate Lane Parts? That is completely contrary to human nature. You cannot coerce people into joining your version of fun. The only effective thing you can do to attract people is to make your way more fun by adding positives to the situation. Adding negatives to the other guy's situation just makes them upset and LESS likely to join you.
Traders have enough problems from pirates robbing them and lawfuls demanding licenses and taxes out the yin yang (over a dozen licenses in Bretonia alone, not counting contraband) without corporations hiring mercenaries to blow them up because they are transporting something that some corporate faction has territorial issues over. If that is going to be the case, then my solution is very simple : I'll make sure that those commodities are not profitable enough to transport to attract interest from people who don't have a dedicated interest in transporting it. So you get a simple tradeoff here. Restrict trade in "your" commodity for everyone else, and you can rely on your faction dedication to motivate you to trade in that commodity, because it will be stripped of the financial motivation for trading in it so that no one else is tempted to get themselves into a situation where your hired goons can harass them for doing so. I noticed someone wondering if plutonium could get improved profits by enforcing a Kishiro/GMG contract for it's transport. I just laughed.
I don't know why the constant tendency around here is to try to solve every perceived problem or improve every situation by clamping down more negatives on everybody else instead of making the "preferred" activity actually preferable through positive improvements. I suppose it's just easier to harm everybody else and make the "preferred" option look better by comparison, but that is simplistic and an ultimately counterproductive mindset due to the hostility and contempt created in the people who are being nerfed. If you want people to join your corporate faction then make it more fun for them to join, but don't try to impose harms on them for not joining.
Trading needs more support primarily by getting all of these oppressive goons off of traders' backs, not by adding even more restrictions to make their life more difficult.
As usual very wise reasoning.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Somehow though, maybe it's my time zone again, but I run into traders who would simply use your incredible post here as ammo for more selfish gameplay.
Why should we join a faction? We trade faster without wasting time on stupid RP on forums, iff/Tag time waste etc.
Before people chase the carrot, they take the path of least resistance.
We can make factions as attractive as we want, if the path of least resistance allows for circumvention of our objectives (minimal Rp at least), then we end up with scores of players upon that path and we have a reverse effect to the carrot.
You are 100% right about not clamping down on negatives, but I think in this case we need to move the goal posts of least resistance a little to the left.
I must admit that my bias toward Faction gameplay is for new players. Indies have win! 99% of my current characters are Indies.
BUT
Starting out in a faction (Rep Ex) taught me the rules, helped me understand RP, introduced me to the forums and in essence, introduced me to a whole new world of friends.
I guess any Idea that bumps people closer to some kind of factionalized gameplay rings ma bell!
Most starter Indies make mistakes out of Ignorance, not Malice! Heck... how do you figure out what commodity is legal on x when you got it off y? FL Companion says it's profitable but next thing you're blown up or sanctioned for wrong IFF/TAg or NPC's not shooting at you...
Most times, a short while in a good trading faction will save players from all this inconvenience and possibly quiten down the forum flames and rants...
' Wrote:No Way.. I have seen Indies with EXCELLENT role play, this is not a stab at Indies at all.
It's the powertraders with no regard for role play that might be an issue.
But no matter what you nerf, you'll never be rid of them! They'll just move to another ID that lets them powertrade better every time you nerf their favorite. It happened with Independent Trader ID at the beginning of 4.85, and Zoner Guard ID getting its nerf seems to indicate that the same happened to them in the most recent update.
That just leaves us to wonder where they'll go next. Interspace?
The way I see it, independent traders are just that, they don't belong to any corporation. Basically, they are a Freelancer that specializes in trade. They trade for themselves and do it where they want to.
While being quite funny, your sig was the biggest one i've ever seen so far. No more than 700x250 please. ~utrack http://pastebin.com/SYQXBufs
' Wrote:You don't let the fox at the chickens cos he digs more holes than you can fill!
That's exactly my point. Nerfing IDs won't fix the problem, they'll always find another one and they'll never actually try to RP. You have to deal with that problem at its source, it's not like a tree you can just clip the dead branches off of.
And you're too obsessed with the chickens to notice that your vegetable garden is getting destroyed.:P
Quote:Some would say that FL is not real life. I would say that we should try and make it as realistic as possible. Soo..a ship restriction on Freelancer/Merc IDs for trading for like say, no ships over 3300 cargo or something would do the trick? Because, think about it. Youre average Freelancer doesn't go around with 100's of millions in his pocket.
In that case we should make it when you die, that you lose everything and your character gets automatically deleted.
That's realistic isn't it?
Totally opposed to the idea Ivan. I started out as an "Independent trader" and still do that to this day. There is a limit to making this game fun and making it tedious. Your idea is heavily leaning towards harming casual players.
There are some people that just don't like being in groups. These people are not lolwats, or powertraders. They just like being alone. To force them into a particular roleplay will push them away. I'm one of those.
I'll leave Discovery when the day comes where you have to join a player faction. I don't have the time for the bull**** politics that goes on. I have no interest in the red-tape that you are suggesting that independent traders jump through. (I'm also not stopping or suggesting that you stop what you're doing to improve corporations, I'm just saying - find another way than restricting "Independent traders" even more. It's difficult enough.)
I'm interested in Roleplay and having fun. Bureaucracy is not fun to me. Mining and trading and shooting is. Paperwork? no thanks. While realistic Bureaucracy and politics may be fun for some (Blunt, Zelot, You, Uniseelie, just to name a few), it is not for others.
As for this:
Quote:This is Freelancer right? Go anywhere, do anything, right? That's what it says on the box atleast. We have enough restrictions in place to encourage house shipping, but that does not mean we should really do away with the smaller working class kind of person in FL...meaning those independent traders.
While it is true that this is a game built on the Freelancer engine, it is not true that you can go anywhere and do anything you like.
Freelancer Vanilla was a Single Player game with certain rules, with multiplayer built in. Eventually it opened up to you having a sandbox universe, but one of the "rules" was that you couldn't dock on red bases.
The rules of Freelancer : Discovery RP 24/7 are similar, yet completely different. To use that quote "Go anywhere do anything" is no longer valid to use. Within your character's limits you play. Red still means hostile, and undockable, but Discovery also has other "rules" that make Roleplaying with other people possible.
Yes, you can go, anywhere, do anything Within Your Role. Using that "Well this is Freelancer isn't it" is not a valid premise/foundation/argument to use about Discovery. No, this is not Freelancer. This is Discovery. Change your argument.:)
Quote:Most times, a short while in a good trading faction will save players from all this inconvenience and possibly quiten down the forum flames and rants...
This is true. However the answer is not in making things more difficult for "Indiy" traders. The answer ... as I've always preached, is player education. Not sanctions, not nerfing, not penalising, but coaching, mentoring, US coming alongside these newbies and trying to attract them, woo them into the faction.
A bossy person/faction/rule lawyer is not attractive to new people (or veteran members even). The question is, How can I make this faction attractive to new players? The answer is not in nerfing things.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.