' Wrote:We need the "excessive demand is PVP abuse" rule brought back.
While I agree that if you demand 100 million credits from one guy, that's excessive, I don't think this is the case. If he would have demanded 9 million (which if I got it right, is what the trader was going to get), it would have been acceptable too, because the trader doesn't lose anything, and he stays alive.
If you end your run with no profit, it's not a reason to believe that a pirate was excessive on his demands.
If he would have asked more than what the cargo was valuaded (approximately) then we can start talking about abuse.
Now, I have a possible scenario, what about a guns dealer? Let's say you dragg him away from a docking port, and he has like 20 codes on his ship, what's an acceptable demand in that case? I've seen codes sold for 10 mil each, even 20 mil each, but the price depends entirely on the seller's will... I've given codes for free, I've even sold them to the ship guns dealer on bases.
EDIT:
Quote:The piracy amount should definitely not be greater than the cost the trader had to put in to buy the cargo.
Really? I don't share your view, not %100. Let's say I'm in Frankfurt, on the lane from munich gate, and I stop a trader who's coming from Munich with Military vehicles, then yes, of course I won't ask more than the cost of his cargo when he bought it.
But, if I am at Tau 31, and I get a trader with Military vehicles coming from Kusari, I'll ask a little more than what he paid for it, simple because, it's better paid in that area, and he already put some work in hauling it from Munich to the Taus.
Maybe, but from I hear and see, pirates overcharge.
The piracy amount should definitely not be greater than the cost the trader had to put in to buy the cargo.
So let me see, trader buys superconductors on Planet Denver to fill 5k train for 500.000 credits so he can only be taxed maximum of 500.000 credits on his way to Kusari
Then he buys engine components on Yokohama for 4.495.00 so he can now be charged 9 times as much on his way back?
It will lead to traders claiming that all their cargo comes from a base from an odd place in Sirius where is sold cheaply
I'm not saying I like pirates overcharging, I'm just saying it's really tricky to decide what is excessive and what is not
' Wrote:The piracy amount should definitely not be greater than the cost the trader had to put in to buy the cargo.
But what about the time the trader took to move? Does that not count for anything of value? What about the profit? What about the RP value of the cargo? There is more to the role of the pirate than just fairplay. I think you'd be surprised to learn that it's called Roleplay, and it's what this server has in its title.
For a server which is named Freelancer RP 24/7, we're really a lot more worried about this fairplay business. Maybe we should rename the server Freelancer FP 24/7. Traders aren't just something to grind money on. Neither are they purely RP platforms. They are a role which is played to make imaginary money. You probably know that. What you aren't taking into consideration, though, is the part of that sentence where I said role.
Sometimes it is completely reasonable to ask for more than the cargo was bought for. In fact, most of the time it's completely reasonable to demand more than the cargo was bought for. The shortest trade routes take an upwards of 15 minutes. That's a pretty long time for that money. If I'm running Artifacts to New London and someone stops me at the Cambridge Gate, that really is an incentive to pay more, mostly because I'm right there by the planet, about to get payed. In the same light, there really isn't a reason to pay as much if I am stopped in Omega-41. I haven't done anything at all. There was no time invested.
But that is just the numbers side of the story. What about the Roleplay of the pirate? What about the Roleplay of the trader? If I am on a prideful character and a RepEx| escapes me or insults me dearly, you bet I'm going to take it out on the next RepEx| which crosses my sights by charging more, not to mention the increase of taxes due to the fact that I've been insulted if I catch the one who did insult me. Is that at all bad Roleplay? Is that unfair to the trader? No, he asked for it by taking the hard way out of the situation and/or insulting the pirate. Both sides made a conscious Roleplay decision and that is all.
Then comes the part where niche factions fight other factions. Is it at all fair that a Unioner should tax both cargo and money from a Republican shipper moving to Alster? Yes, of course it is. The player made a conscious Roleplay decision to move goods to Alster Shipyard under a Republican ID and took all the risks inherent in this movement. This includes angering the local Unioners. Is this at all bad Roleplay? Is this at all unfair to the trader? No, the player has chosen to take all the risks inherent in going to Alster Shipyard under a Republican ID. Both sides made a conscious Roleplay decision and that is all. What about someone moving Synth Paste to Roppongi Station with a Synth Foods tag being asked for both cargo and money from a Farmer's Alliance ship? The player made a conscious Roleplay decision to ship Synth Paste into the heart of Kusari and took all the risks inherent in that run, including the risk of Farmer's Alliance attack. Is this unfair to either players? No, the player has chosen to take all the risks involved in going to Roppongi Station with a Synth Foods ID. Both sides made a conscious Roleplay decision, again.
If anything, it would be unfair to pirates to limit tax in such a way. How can one Roleplay to his full potential if he's limited to such a small amount? How can a pirate even know where a trader bought the cargo? What about miners? It's just a horrible concept in every way...
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
' Wrote:If you end your run with no profit, it's not a reason to believe that a pirate was excessive on his demands.
What? No, seriously?
' Wrote:But what about the time the trader took to move? Does that not count for anything of value? What about the profit? What about the RP value of the cargo? There is more to the role of the pirate than just fairplay. I think you'd be surprised to learn that it's called Roleplay, and it's what this server has in its title.
For a server which is named Freelancer RP 24/7, we're really a lot more worried about this fairplay business. Maybe we should rename the server Freelancer FP 24/7. Traders aren't just something to grind money on. Neither are they purely RP platforms. They are a role which is played to make imaginary money. You probably know that. What you aren't taking into consideration, though, is the part of that sentence where I said role.
If anything, it would be unfair to pirates to limit tax in such a way. How can one Roleplay to his full potential if he's limited to such a small amount? How can a pirate even know where a trader bought the cargo? What about miners? It's just a horrible concept in every way...
Well, if you want to be a jerk, which is quite frankly the definition of those who ask for all cargo or full profits from a trader, sure, feel free to justify it by saying how you are a God of RP and that over 9000 lore says you can do that. But, it does not change the fact that you are being a jerk on a game, which people play for fun. If we are not going to have some fair-play, especially in this oh so awesome economy, it is not fun any more.
Frankly, I think it is unfair to charge traders ridiculous amounts. Role-play to full amounts? Flip. People keep saying role-play is not about the credits.
Anyway, I ignored most of the various posts on how they should be taxed more if closer to their goal. Of course, I daresay this is metagaming of a sort, and that the awesome role-players here would not resort to that, but let us be realistic.
Feel free to comment on my amended suggestion of 2 million credits, or, the cost of the cargo, whichever is greater.
It's hard to determine whats reasonable and what not, it depends on both the pirate and the trader, the circumstances and both parties RP and of course the traders conduct.
I also don't think that the traders shiptype has to say anything about him being a new player or not, I've seen freighters with a CAP8 and Battleship License.
As Bacon pointed out, there are a couple of RP scenarios where being the trader just sucks and the pirate, no matter how rude and demanding he is, isn't doing anything wrong.
If you are on a Repex transport and you meet a Unioner, you are likely to loose either your cargo or your life. Same with LWB and Synth Foods, Lane Hackers and Ageira, Bretonian Privateer and Samura,...and so on.
These scenarios however, are worth a bit more RP than the generic 'U stop! Dropallcargo or dai!...kthxbai!' but if it is RPed out and the pirates motives are clear, everything is alright.
The casual trader...well, I try to make reasonable demands but don't expect me to browse a commodity list and get my calculator out just to be able to estimate what would be 'reasonable' to charge and the amount completely depends on the shiptype, ranging between 100k and 2 million credits (for non-miners).
Also remember, if you try to run, powering up cruise engines, thrusting away, maybe even make me loose another trader because of that, the price is skyrocketing, same with oorp babble, the use of 'u' instead of 'you' and other stuff like this, and threats about taken screenshots etc...
So yes, without the exact context of the situation in the topic starters post, its impossible to know if it was overcharging or not and it seems just like another 'OMG! I haz kill pirate Gunship in mah tansport!!' gloating.
There are some faction that have full right to demand all the cargo. Trader have the choice of picking who will he work for. I'm sure independent trader gets much less hostile treatment from Farmers than Synth Food ship.
You can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen I say
This is not pirate - trader server. It's much more colorful than that. Trading is also RP.
I agree. If you demand full cost of profit,or entire load? well you are just looking for PvP. RP s fine and dandy,and i love it,but if it took me 30minutes of gameplay,and 2 minutes from my drop off, i am not going to just give away my entire cargo/profit. I will make a run for it/call in help while delaying,or in my Shire's case, wipe out the pirate while running to base/planet. RP, or not. It is just a prick trying to PvP or ruin someone else's fun.
More Info. I was flying Bowex colour's,and had a load of Diamond's. So i see no RP reason a Hacker would wan't me to dump my entire load. I also stoped as soon as i came out of TL,and RP'd very nice,and victom like. Offered cash,and anything else he may want to let me keep my cargo. All i got was drop it or DAI. I have screens and would post it,but like to keep the name's of both party's ship's out of it.
The way i see it. Anything more then 50% of cargo/profit is just Power pirating. I used to haul Waste in an ALG hauler,with ALG TAG/ID. Know how many times i had a pirate demand 2Mil or DAI right after i loaded up in NY?(for those who do not know it,waste cost's 1 credit there,so max 5000 cred's to fill up).
I died alot,and i killed alot. Max profit was 1.5mil,and i played the char for RP fun. It is just dumb i find.
Before you demand? scan cargo,and know something about it.
On a side note. I killed 5 pirate's in Penn today robbing CSV's/rhino's,and a few other tiny Freighter's. Come on guy's, let the new player's get started before you become dick's.
' Wrote:I agree. If you demand full cost of profit,or entire load? well you are just looking for PvP. RP s fine and dandy,and i love it,but if it took me 30minutes of gameplay,and 2 minutes from my drop off, i am not going to just give away my entire cargo/profit.
Gameplay is not the number added to your bank balance but the gameplay experience you had during those 30 minutes.
You are obliged to make one, and only one demand of Samura traders you encounter - that they publicly denounce the Emperor in system chat. If they do not comply you are obliged to destroy them, and destroy their cargo if it cannot be salvaged.
Does this fall under your parameters for an 'unreasonable demand'?