Population of Sirius

[Igiss]

My mistake about 150 million for Manhattan, it was 220 million in Vanilla, and was not supposed to change.

Here are the population figures (in millions) that I sent to Kuraine in the beginning of September:

Liberty 745
Bretonia 629
Kusari 487
Rheinland 682

Gallia 1406
Of which:
Nevers - 43 million
Marne - 298 million
Quillan - 9 million

Corsairs 94
Outcasts 39
Zoners 136

Others 20
Of which:
Toledo - 2 million
Curacao - 18 million

I can consider increasing them, since Manhattan may not be the most populated planet in Liberty, for example. Still, I'll insist that increasing those figures more than 30-35% doesn't make much sense.

Not quite sure where to get the info on US immigration. Look here, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._...ion_growth_rate

[kingvaillant]

I do recall an old Discussion with Adam where the planet population, if following growth charts from nowadays countries, were... INSANELY high. Something like 25 Bil of peeps on manhattan XD

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Director of the Liberty Security Force: Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity

The Amundsen Zone-21 Restrictions

[Unseelie]

Kingvalliant, I've done a simillar study, and found the numbers to be very small. The link to that model is in my signature. But I've also stated over and over that I don't think a nation's current growth will have much to do with the house's growth in freelancer, if at all. Moreover, to adress the argument that advanced nations don't like to have children, I'll propose the idea that advanced nations are full, and don't have room, while developing nations, do have room. But that, in itself, is flawed, because of nations like the siamiese regions. Still, I think I can show that, for the most part, it is likely that the more densely populated regions have less growth than the less densly populated regions, through use of these:Population Density:
,
and Population Growth Rate:


25 billion per planet is, in my oppinion, closer to correct that Igiss's 2.3 billion in all of Sirius...But 12 million per house capital, and less on the outlying worlds, is more reasonable.


Igiss, before I run your numbers in earnest, I've a few more questions: Have the populations of the houses been growing on the same average rate throughout their lifespans, or was there a colonial boom at 0 point? IF so, what sort of colonial boom? How long did it last? On Gallia: How many did they bring(consensus on the 5 original sleeper ships is 50k apiece), and when did they arrive?(I suspect that they'll have an unfairly better growth rate.)

Beyond that, I'm going to go ahead and say that I cannot understand why the population would be so low (nor why it isn't growing right now if it is so low, which would have made manhattan grow, one expects) unless you're citing extreme agricultural difficulties, so much so that across the 3 arable worlds of Liberty, they can only grow enough food, even with the 'advanced robotics' that you introduced into this discussion, enough food for less than 800 million people? A tenth of the current human population? That is to say, these three worlds, as far as their agriculture is concerned, are each only worth 3% of earth? Not even mentioning Synth foods.

Still, I'll insist that increasing those figures more than 30-35% doesn't make much sense.

Why not? I believe the past 9 pages are discussions and citations as to why it does make sense, and I don't at all see where my logic has failed. Please point that out, and I'll begin work under a new set of reasonable assumptions, or endeavor to satisfactorilarily justify my own.

Also, with your permission, I'm going to ask Kuriane if I can have, and share with the community, the populations of each base and faction throughout the sector, and compare that to the use and production of capitalships.

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[Igiss]

4,3 billion, not 2,3.

I estimate the number of settlers per sleeper ship as 25-30 thousand. And I didn't implement any population growth counting models. The speeds are always different, you can never predict how the population will grow 200 years in future from now, or 1000 years in future.

Population of Europe right now is declining, not even growing. Why would the governments be interested in increasing population when there's not enough employment positions even for the current numbers? This leads me back to mechanized labour again. I do see a possibility of governments encouraging families to have more children in the first dozens and hundreds of years, but when 7-8 hundred years passed, why would they do it? Note the rates of "economically undesirable" in Liberty, for example.

The figures that I posted were mostly about ratio between Houses. Numbers themselves can be changed, but not too far from what they are right now. There's no reason why 220 million for Manhattan should be a mistake. If we treat information from vanilla as mistakes, it gives a bit too much freedom to change literally everything.

What's wrong with populations of stations?

[Saigo.Watanabe]

I would say a few hundred a station, if that.
but i personally think the numbers probably aren't as high a billion per house.

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"Time is too precious to be idle." - Saigo Watanabe
"Death is something that is inevitable, Something you cannot run away from." - Katharina Hildegard
Now going under the gaming name: Seraxia
www.twitter.com/Seraxia

[Unseelie]

Stations....
Well, we've the problem of scale, with stations. We must assume that they're quite large, if they can hold fighters. Now, I've mostly ignored stations, because I've no idea how large they actually are...For that matter, I've no idea how many people crew a battleship...I'd assume a lot. Anyway, I have no idea what their actuall size is, so I cannot make any estimate of their population.


Vanilla cannot be wrong? Surely you must be joking.

In case you missed that:

Founded in the year 1 AS, Manhattan was the first human colony established in the Sirius Sector. Over the Last eight centuries it has grown into a teeming world of 220 million people who live and work in a single city that covers the vast majority of the planet. Nearly the entire population is dedicated to the manifest destiny of the Liberty free market, and today Manhattan is the hub of a vast commercial network that stretches into almost every corner of Sirius. While "going to Manhattan" has become a commonly accepted phrase for leaving home to seek your fortune, the cost of living on Manhattan itself is extravagantly high. If a trend is new and exciting -- and expensive -- then it is almost certainly originated here.

220 million does not a city world make, so there is -obviously- a mistake in vanilla. Once again: vast majority of the planet. Yes. 220 million, less than the population of the rather not dense United States of America (Reference my image from above.) forms a city (you suggested suburb) that covers the vast majority of the planet?

So, obviously, there's an error. If you want to debate that....

The figures that I posted were mostly about ratio between Houses. Numbers themselves can be changed, but not too far from what they are right now. There's no reason why 220 million for Manhattan should be a mistake. If we treat information from vanilla as mistakes, it gives a bit too much freedom to change literally everything.

Well, so, there's an error. Its either the infocard text, or the number of inhabitants. When I first examined this problem, I assumed that the text would have garnered more attention from the quality control checks than the single number. I assumed that the text was more in line with the images provided for each homeworld, and the feeling of a metropolitan center of an interstellar civilization...

Moreover, I suspect you're changing the bigger impact. You've forced Kuriane, against his own better judgement, to change the infocard rather than the number, in what I can only assume is the belief that digital anvil put more impact onto thier numbers, which I assume to have been randomly chosen, than their written out explanations, the explanations that we have, since I joined this community, held as the absolute height of the cannon.

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[Igiss]

Moreover, I suspect you're changing the bigger impact. You've forced Kuriane, against his own better judgement, to change the infocard rather than the number, in what I can only assume is the belief that digital anvil put more impact onto thier numbers, which I assume to have been randomly chosen, than their written out explanations, the explanations that we have, since I joined this community, held as the absolute height of the cannon.

I haven't forced anyone to do anything.

In case of Manhattan, according to its description, I'd imagine that the planet should have looked more similar to New Tokyo. It's artwork not matching the concept. Plus, don't take things that literally... there are areas on Manhattan that cannot be covered by this "city", including the mountains that you see in the vicinity when you land there. "Vast majority" is an ambiguous term.

There is no reason to consider 220 million a mistake. If it could be 220 billion... well, fortunately, they are not Hynerian.

[bluntpencil2001]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

The Zoners, a faction less than 100 years old, has a greater population than the combined Hispanic descendants?

That's... strange.

There must have been some sort of mass exodus of people that we weren't made aware of. Or maybe they grow like fungus on space stations. And we're also forgetting IMG, GMG, et cetera.

Also, 2 billion in Sirius total is pretty low. You'd have trouble having nough people for a single city over all those planets if that was the case, never mind city-planets.

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[Unseelie]

In case of Manhattan, according to its description, I'd imagine that the planet should have looked more similar to New Tokyo. It's artwork not matching the concept. Plus, don't take things that literally... there are areas on Manhattan that cannot be covered by this "city", including the mountains that you see in the vicinity when you land there. "Vast majority" is an ambiguous term

Uhm. Vast majority. Really not that ambiguous, or at least, there isn't an ambiguous minimum. Vast means large, if I'm not mistaken, majority means more than 50%, yes? Tell me if I'm wrong. so, assuming, that it is just the 'majority', without any assumption as to the vastness...thats still 50% of the planet covered in city, or suburb, as you've suggested. In case we've forgotten, Suburb! Now, since I've posted images of Manhattan, and anyone can look at it as simply as making a new character, I think we can assume that it has roughly the same, if not more, land area than the planet earth. That is to say, more than 30% land area. So, if only half(half being the minumum majority) of the land area, 15% of the planet, (which is, acording to the infocard, 12753km in diameter, 2km less than that of the Earth) is supposedly suburb, and the rest empty, by your logic, which is two thirds of the population of the united states spread out in more than twice the space(Source: Countries by Landmass).

As for Kuriane, forced is an overly strong word. He has, of course, volunteered. But I've spoken to him, and I know, from those discussions, that he agrees with me in regards to the size of the Sirius population.

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[AdamantineFist]

Alright then, I have one question for you naysayers.

Why wouldn't a colonial gov't encourage population growth if it could sustain it? No reason at all. They would want the biggest population possible.

More people = more taxes
More taxes = bigger military
More people = bigger military, too.
More people = more stuff getting done.
More people = good.

The houses could support vast population growth. Do you realize how much SPACE they have? How absolutely, mind****ingly vast the amount of space they have is? Earth is currently sustaining about 6.5 billion people, and most of them have very poor technology. Now, lets imagine what you can fit on, say, four planets. Lets say, Manhattan, Houston, LA, and Denver. Think about the unbelievably, relentlessly huge amount of space. Now, think of space, itself, the final frontier. Huge, absurd amounts of space. Craploads of resources. Think about how much room there is for people, how much room there is for growing food. Also, think how good our technology for growing food is. Imagine if every single country on Earth suddenly became first-world, if their crop outputs increased to first-world standards. Imagine if we had ANOTHER PLANET on which to put people and grow food. TWO planets, THREE other planets. Even if one was absolutely sh*ty for it. Imagine what we could do with that. Now, don't you think a government would want to populate those worlds, make them productive, competitive? I think that any of the houses would want that. All of them would.

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