Upon examination, the two do seem to be about the same size as far as I can tell.
If nothing else were to change, I have one suggestion which I believe is reasonable (though a dev can come and tell me why it isn't, if it isn't): Change all of the Yacht's 5 turrets to gunboat turrets. Kusari Yacht retains the cargo and excellent maneuverability, while the generic Yacht gains the firepower its infocard says it has. It would still be larger than any gunboat, with lower shields and significantly less firepower (especially if the power core wasn't changed, it would be stuck with the basic/anti-fighter GB turrets and no missiles). And it would still cost far more than any gunboat.
It should also get the CD its infocard says it's supposed to have (and which the Kusari Yacht already has).
Any thoughts on this idea?
Edit: There's already precedent for such a ship, with the Junker Salvager, which has more than 5 gunboat turrets.
' Wrote:Upon examination, the two do seem to be about the same size as far as I can tell.
If nothing else were to change, I have one suggestion which I believe is reasonable (though a dev can come and tell me why it isn't, if it isn't): Change all of the Yacht's 5 turrets to gunboat turrets. Kusari Yacht retains the cargo and excellent maneuverability, while the generic Yacht gains the firepower its infocard says it has. It would still be larger than any gunboat, with lower shields and significantly less firepower (especially if the power core wasn't changed, it would be stuck with the basic/anti-fighter GB turrets and no missiles). And it would still cost far more than any gunboat.
It should also get the CD its infocard says it's supposed to have (and which the Kusari Yacht already has).
Any thoughts on this idea?
Signed. The Yacht needs to be worth the price. Change them to Gunboat turrets, and maybe have the price about the same as an expensive GB.
The price of Kusari one should change I agree on that.
' Wrote:Change all of the Yacht's 5 turrets to gunboat turrets.
Then it will be used for fighting enemies, idea was that it should be good for running. But maybe some tuning of the powerplant capacity (not recharge), so that the forward slot can be used for razor/inferno when you need to "blast trough" enemies.
Quote:It should also get the CD its infocard says it's supposed to have (and which the Kusari Yacht already has).
This is an infocard bug actually and it's more likely that the CD from Kusari yacht will be removed.
Primary goal of both yachts imo should be survival. They are very expensive "toys" for showing off and for keeping the owner out of trouble. So in principle they should be "overpriced" like the Yacht is now, and only reason to purchase one will be to show off and be able to survive/run. If they were "worth their price" people will buy them for various other purposes.
Also upon closer examination the Kusari Yacht can actually fire just 5 turrets back, they can also get some further tuning so that the forward one doesn't fire trough the main "house". That will limit it to 4 effective backwards turrets which is same as the other Yacht.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
5 gunboat turrets does give it enough firepower to fight, but it won't be able to fight as well as a gunboat, due to both a larger size and lower power (and fewer turrets than most gunboats). I agree that it should be a 'special' ship only used by people who really want it, not just a good ship. Even with 5 GB turrets, it won't be used by PVPers due to the inferiority to gunboats, it won't be used by powertraders due to its lack of cargo, it would only be used by people who wanted it as a unique ship. The Yacht is supposed to be heavily armed, the infocard even says so. A single GB heavy weapon might accomplish this, I don't know.
Kusari Yacht can fire 7 forward transport turrets, which is as much firepower as the Pirate Transport had in 4.84, plus far better maneuverability. I don't know how this translates into the rebalanced 4.85, but the old Pirate Transport was dangerous. With almost freighter maneuverability and 7 forward transport turrets, I think the Kusari Yacht will be pretty dangerous versus fighters and bombers at least, much more dangerous than the generic Yacht is currently. If it wanted to fight, it could.
CDs aren't really a big deal, just that if one has one, then both should in my opinion. Without CDs they couldn't be effectively transformed into pirate yachts. If you don't risk someone using them for pirating, what's wrong with giving them the ability to fight and run away? Inferior to other transports for powertrading, inferior to gunboats for PvPing, filling a unique position as 'blockage runners' who can fight or flee their way through hostility to deliver their passengers/goods safely. Seems pretty balanced to me, and it works thematically.
' Wrote:The Yacht is supposed to be heavily armed, the infocard even says so.
*curses towards dusty for writing random infocard*
Though I would say that 1 GB turret is "heavily armed" for a civilian ship.
Quote:Kusari Yacht can fire 7 forward transport turrets, which is as much firepower as the Pirate Transport had in 4.84, plus far better maneuverability. I don't know how this translates into the rebalanced 4.85, but the old Pirate Transport was dangerous. With almost freighter maneuverability and 7 forward transport turrets, I think the Kusari Yacht will be pretty dangerous versus fighters and bombers at least, much more dangerous than the generic Yacht is currently. If it wanted to fight, it could.
To make use of the 7 forward turrets (2 of which fire forward only in a very limited angle), you have to e-kill and turn. If a fighter/bomber is pirating you, I'd assume they have a cd.
Quote:If you don't risk someone using them for pirating, what's wrong with giving them the ability to fight and run away? Inferior to other transports for powertrading, inferior to gunboats for PvPing, filling a unique position as 'blockage runners' who can fight or flee their way through hostility to deliver their passengers/goods safely. Seems pretty balanced to me, and it works thematically.
They are simply not meant for that.... the Kusari yacht specifically doesn't look like anything that could run trough any blockade.
It's listed more in this way:
For small scale and very safe businesses - ships that can both run and fight:
Freighters (they can basically defeat VHF 1vs1 now)
Armored Transport
For "special" businesses - ships that can run
Yacht
Kusari Yacht
For large scale businesses - ships that can fight
Pirate Transport
Salvager
Slave Liner
Prison Liner
Luxury Liner
Having said this I'm pretty confident that you can "defeat" 1 VHF with the Yachts without much trouble... while running. Actual tests done with the normal Yacht before release showed this. When thrusting one way at 160 the VHF is confined to a very narrow space with little ability to dodge or strafe => if he wants to keep up he will be getting hit. Bombers you can't "defeat" just outrun. Transport that defeats bombers in a fight would have the capabilities of a GB. GBs you outrun easily.
=> I don't see in which area they need a boost.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
Meh, they don't necessarily need a boost, but I think they do at least need balancing between the two. If one is better in all ways except armor (where it's inferior) and speed (where it's equal), yet isn't a fair bit more expensive than the other (much less less expensive, which you've already said needs to be fixed), then I think that's a bit of a problem.
Assuming about equal price, and if you don't want to give the Yacht more GB turrets, I think it could use more cargo (2000, or 2500 like the Kusari version). The much greater armor of the Yacht is balanced by the Kusari ship's much greater maneuverability. Increasing the Yacht's power core so it could fire a heavy GB turret (even slowly) might help, and would be balanced by the Kusari ship's greater anti-fighter capability (more transport turrets). The dual-CM on the Yacht might warrant a somewhat higher price, but not anything insane.
CDs are optional. They're nice to have, but not necessarily necessary.
' Wrote:Then it will be used for fighting enemies, idea was that it should be good for running. But maybe some tuning of the powerplant capacity (not recharge), so that the forward slot can be used for razor/inferno when you need to "blast trough" enemies.
Yeah, I really don't want to see it being used for a lot of PvP by people who have no business even flying it.
But!
If it has 5 gunboat turrets, and worse armour and worse powercore than ALL other gunboats, and is 3 or 4 times the price of all other gunboats, I don't think there's a risk of that.
Going off the infocard/name/cargo size, I don't see it as a nippy transport vessel designed to run away from everyone, I see it as the personal plaything of rich timewasters.
I guess this is just a design call that could go either way, but at the moment, the stats, infocard, name and price are all in contradiction with each other and don't add up at all.
And really, who wants this ship to become a manoeuvreable little transport that no one will use because it has a tiny cargo and costs more money than you could ever realistically make using it? And who wants it to be impressive, beautiful, powerful and ostentatious, but admittedly too flimsy to stand up to anything of the equivalent grade that costs a fifth of the price?
I don't mind the yacht remaining really expensive, and in fact, if it does get a boost, the price would be a great 'balance' issue along with its other weaknesses, to stop it being used as a PvP ship.
Take a look at the junker salvage frigate: it has 5 (I think?) gunboat turrets, and huge capacity when compared to the yacht (3500 or somesuch). It's also expensive, and it has a transport shield. I don't see anyone saying that the salvage frigate is overpowered. It's only strength that I can see is in demanding cargo piracy. But with the yacht, its small cargo would invalidate that anyway. If other people are anything like me, the salvage frigate and yacht are 'fun' ships. I don't own any gunboats or capitals, and these over-gunned but under-supported transports would let me play around with big boy turrets and feel flashy (like you should with a yacht!), without being able to cause any real havoc or upset anyone.
Just, you know, reading about everyone writing the Zoner GB off as 'not combat-worthy', despite it being (as far as I know) pretty much a gunboat class ship across the board, but with only 4 turrets. But the yacht can't have 4/5 gunboat turrets whilst having stats inferior to the Zoner GB? Because it would be too good?
Personally, I don't mind them being balanced towards each other or not - they're not fighting ships, and if I ever saw the two of them fight each other, I'd probably be sick. Just, the Kusari Luxury Transport has a lot of things going for it that make it unique, fun to own/fly and worth buying. The Yacht is a really nice model, and a bunch of fail. And costs 60 million more for the privelidge.
Go on Jinx, you know you secretly want it to be great;)
I have a character (The Akizuki) which pilots a Kusari Luxury Liner.
I agree completely with Drake about the maneuverability issue, there is no denying the fact that the Kusari Luxury Liner is shockingly agile for being just a Luxury Liner, but if it were to keep its original armor value of 75k, then it should still possess a significant agility compared to the Yacht because the Yacht has 175k armor.
100k armor is alot but yes I still agree upon a slight nerfing on the maneuverability of the Kusari Luxury Liner.
The Kusari Luxury Liner should also cost more, perhaps around 40-50 million credits.
A size change should not be necessary as both the Yacht and the Kusari Luxury Liner have about the same size.
Then it leaves us the the weaponry issue, which has two arguments that contradicts each other. First argument is that the Yacht is supposed to be a ship made for high (almost pure) roleplaying. Meaning that it should cost alot, have a really nice design and possess decent capability for trading so you can actually perform something with the ship. It should carry low weaponry functions because its original purpose was not for fighting, however it should still require necessary defence capabilities.
The second argument is that the Yacht's weaponry functions require a boost since the Vessel Description Card says so and that it will get frequently pirated which require more defence.
Personally believe that 4 Train Turrets and one additional gunboat turret is not that reasonable compared to the Kusari Luxury Liner which has 7 Train Turrets.
So the Kusari Luxury Liner has: 7 Train Turrets
And the Yacht has: 4 Train Turrets + 1 Gunboat Turret
Now comes the question: Does one Gunboat Turret equal to the power of 3 Train Turrets? Certainly not so we have three choices:
1) A reasonable weaponry nerf to the Kusari Luxury Liner. E.g. looses one Train Turret or fewer Turrets are able to fire backwards like Mjolnir suggested.
2) A reasonable weaponry boost to the Yacht. E.g. one Train Turret slot becomes a Gunboat Turret slot or one extra Train Turret.
3) Ignore completely the weaponry differences and balance the other issues such as the maneuverability problem. Also an acceptance to that everything dosen't need to be exactly the same.
Another thing, a Cruise Disruptor isn't really logical for a Luxury Liner, a CD's only purpose for capital-ships is to stop an opponent. Piloting a Luxury Liner shouldn't be about pirating others let alone acting hostile.
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