Cap Missile Balance

[Dab]

My stats on the Gunboat missile balance from the 'need bomber pilot experience' thread.

EDIT: Oh, and the GB missiles.. Kusari GB missile - 170,000 energy usage. Bretonian GB missile - 270,000 energy usage. Kusari GB missile 6600 - Bret GB missile - 8500 damage.

Bret GB missile takes 1.59x the energy of the Kusari GB missile, while doing only 1.29x the damage. Balance would have the Bret GB do ~ 219,000, definitely not 270,000. 219,000 gives it the same damage-to-energy ratio as the Kusari GB's missile. Now I understand flunctuation and diversity are a good thing.. But not a difference of 30%.
EDIT2: And more stats as people thought that ship power core should be factored into it..

Salamanca II: (Titan has
Power-Usage: 113.00
530 damage

Kraken Type 2:
Power-usage: 126
556 damage

Titan:
15,000 Energy
1,340 Recharge

Sabre:
11,400 Energy
1,160 Recharge

Huge Difference in the energy cap and recharge of the ships.. Very little in the guns. The guns are balanced damage by power use.. The GB missiles are not even close to it. Here are the stats on the missiles:

Kusari GB Missile (power / damage)= 25.75
Bretonia GB Missile (power / damage)= 31.76

Kusari's damage 1 damage for every 25.75 power use.
Bret's damage 1 damage for every 31.76 power use.

Very large difference don't you think? A completely and ridiculously unbalanced difference, don't you think?
To compare with the Salamanca - Kraken comparison;

Salamanca II (power / damage)= 0.2132
Kraken Type 2 (power / damage)= 0.2266

Salamanca II damage 1 damage for every 0.2132 power use.
Kraken Type 2 damage 1 damage for every 0.2266 power use.

Very little difference. Seems pretty balanced to me. And completely and utterly different from the GB missile comparison.. There should be little fluctuation in power/damage ratios between weapons. Weapons that do more damage should use more energy.. But it should still be in reasonable terms.

This is not the place for this at all, but ok
a)
Kusari GB powerplant: 400k/40k
Bretonian GB powerplant: 600k/60k

yes that is 50% more power

b) Kusari GB missile uses 42.5% of the GB energy
Bret GB missile uses 45% of the GB energy

c) All guns in the game follow the concept that for more damage you get less efficiency, most notably lvl 8 vs lvl 9 guns, can't see why GB missile should be different

Mjolnir, take a look at my edited post.. You're contradicting yourself.. This is a prime example of how they aren't balanced, especially in comparison with level 9 guns. Furthermore, weapons should be damage between their own damage and energy usage.. Not that of the ship. Lower energy capacity and regeneration are a disadvantage of some ships, and an advantage to those with higher energy capacity and regeneration. By changing the weaponry to fit that energy, you're taking away that advantage and that disadvantage. You're throwing out balance by doing that.

To compare;

Bret GB; Has more hull, has more energy, 2 more turrets
Kusari GB; Half the size of Bret GB, very agile, very good against fighters and bombers because of small and hard to hit shape, and now great missiles

Oh and;

Titan powerplant: 15,000/1,340
Sabre powerplant: 11,400/1,160

Salamanca II uses 0.00753% of Titan's energy.
Kraken Type 2 uses 0.01105% of Sabre's energy.

Now that isn't equal.. So your question is a very good one.. Why should the Gunboat's be different? You did one type of balance throughout the fighters, yet then you get to the Ku and Bret GBs and you have a completely different set of balance. Well, lack of balance.

As said; Weapons should be balanced by their own power divided by damage (power / damage), not by comparing them to the ships they are used on.. You know this and balanced correctly on the fighters, but then you suddenly want to change that here?

And these are the destroyer stats:

Bret Dest: 2,250K/120K - Energy Capacity/Recharge

hull_damage = 170,000
power_usage = 1,500,000
Power / Damage = 0.8824 - 1 damage for every 0.8824 energy used.
Angular Velocity = 0.40 - Speed it can turn.
Seeker (tracking) range = 5,500m - Max targeting range.
Seeker fov degree = 40 - Field of View of missile, maximum angle from target it can continue tracking.
Hit Points = 80,000
Muzzle Velocity = 10m/s - Speed of projectile as it leaves turret.


Ku Dest: 1,400K/95K - Energy Capacity/Recharge

hull_damage = 110,000
power_usage = 900,000
Power / Damage = 0.8182 - 1 damage for every 0.8182 energy used.
Angular Velocity = 0.45 - Speed it can turn.
Seeker (tracking) range = 6,000m - Max targeting range.
Seeker fov degree = 45 - Field of View of missile, maximum angle from target it can continue tracking.
Hit Points = 100,000
Muzzle Velocity = 20m/s - Speed of projectile as it leaves turret.

Someone please tell me where the Bretonian missiles have any advantage whatsoever compared to the Kusari ones. Oh, and keep in mind Kusari ships are faster and smaller.. Then look who gets the missiles better suited for shooting down faster and smaller targets.

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[Guest]

I was always under the impression that Seeker FOV Degree = Field of View, the area infront of the missile it Can track in.
While Angular Velocity = the speed a projectile turns.

Cruiser missile turning speeds arent even the least bit decent for tracking faster and smaller targets.
Sidewinders have 4.36 turning speed or so and can still be dodged.
Gunboats have 8.1, which are what usually gets fighters.

[Dab]

You're right on the definitions of those two.. I wasn't entirely sure what fov in this case means. Usually its Field of View, but there is so much crap in FL's coding that doesn't mean what you expect it to, I wasn't sure.. Looked it up on a sight explaining what things in FL's code meant and it was wrong.. Everything else I'm sure on though.

And the turning is important when you're talking about bombers. Plus its just the cherry on top of all the other unbalanced parts of the stats. The Gunboats are the worst part of this in terms of lack of balance.

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[Dab]

I don't get this new ratio you are using at all. It's not damage/energy.

You're perfectly right. Its energy/damage. It calculates how much energy you use for each unit of damage you do. So if you did 100 damage and used 10 energy per shot, you'd get a ratio of 10 damage for every 1 unit of energy used.

GB missiles were changed for the sole purpose that only 1 can be fired "continuously" and that one should take a bit under half gb power, as this was agreed by the majority of the balance team. Which you can read all in the now ages old thread on the Dev. forum. That implies that with the very different powercores GBs have (50% recharge/capacity difference) missiles very different energy use.

Perhaps you should decrease the Ku GB's missile's damage to accommodate that then. I'm pretty damned sure the dev team didn't mean to do so at the expense of one gunboat and to the vast advantage of another.. And using this decision as an excuse to make one missile do so much more damage for so less energy usage compared to the others isn't balance. Its the exact opposite.

So when Kusari GB does mount 1 "great" missile it can fire whole 3 guns forward, while if the bret gb does that it can fire 6.

Isn't that supposed to be one of the Kusari GB's disadvantages? Every ship has a disadvantage, changing everything else to be an advantage to get rid of that disadvantage isn't balance.. One ship having as many disadvantages as the ship its compared to, as well as the same amount of advantages against it is balance.

Also, remember that the Kusari GB is (corrected on Skype); 1/3rd the size of the Bretonian Gunboat.. So I think the Bretonian Gunboat's extra firepower is sort of the point of its large size.. Don't you think that if the Bret's wanted it smaller, they could make it that way? The drawback is less firepower on a smaller ship.. Kusari GB is a smaller ship = Less firepower. Bret GB is bigger = more firepower. Battleships are the exact same. Here you want to take that away and give the smaller on the exact same firepower by giving it vastly superior weaponry. That takes away the Bret GB's firepower/turret advantage.. So now its just hull and energy that it has an advantage in.. But the Kusari GB is 1/3rd the size of the Bret GB, meaning the Bret GB can't hit it as often as the Ku GB can hit the Bret one.. So that equals out the the higher hull against smaller size and faster ship. And the energy advantage goes away when you give the Kusari Gunboat weaponry that is so vastly more energy efficient.

Also, how useful are those 6 forward-firing cannons when the Ku GB can so easily get behind the Bret GB? So then the Ku GB has the firepower advantage of 3 turrets and a forward gun when the Bret GB has.. Its 2 backward-firing turrets? Meanwhile it can't take out fighters, bombers, or anything else because its missiles are completely rubish, while the Ku GB absolutely rapes them with its superior missiles, faster turning, and smaller size.

If we look back to 4.84. Both had exactly same powercore and exactly same missiles.

Well, equal is better than what we have right now.. Because this isn't balance in any definition of the word.

No it isn't equal, the more damaging gun uses even more energy, just like Bret vs Kusari GB missiles. I don't see any difference there.

b) Kusari GB missile uses 42.5% of the GB energy
Bret GB missile uses 45% of the GB energy

Salamanca II uses 0.00753% of Titan's energy.
Kraken Type 2 uses 0.01105% of Sabre's energy.

See the difference? You have Kusari GB take about equal amounts from its own power that the Bret GB takes from its power.

However, the Salamanca and Krakens take vastly different amounts of power from there ship. You've balanced the Salamanca and Kraken as more damage, more energy usage. They have similar power-usage per unit of damage, but different percentage of the ship's power core per shot..

On the GBs you have the two missiles have VASTLY differing power-usage per unit of damage. With that they take the same percentage of their own ship's power cores. So its the opposite from the fighters.

Kusari's damage 1 damage for every 25.75 power use.
Bret's damage 1 damage for every 31.76 power use.
- - -
Salamanca II damage 1 damage for every 0.2132 power use.
Kraken Type 2 damage 1 damage for every 0.2266 power use.

"As said" ? First you say that only guns matter, then that powerplants matter, then guns only again... ehh lost me there.

I never said ship powerplants matter. I've said the opposite. The ship's powerplant shouldn't have any factor in the balance of the weaponry. What if the Ku Missiles were to go on the Ku Explorer rather than the Ku GB? Explorer has the exact same power and recharge of the Bret GB, but now its missiles are extremely better. And it takes about a FOURTH of the power core, not 'just a bit less than half.' Not a third.. A fourth of the Ku Explorer's powercore.

And the above I was saying the WEAPON'S damage should be balanced with the WEAPON'S energy usage. Never mentioned ship's powercore, you're simply twisting my words because you have no stats to use to counter these displayed here, because it isn't balanced.

All this certainly doesn't fall into "need bomberpilot experience thread" move it somewhere else.

As you can see, I did make a new thread, and was waiting for this post to come here, but you posted in the bomber thread, even after this was made.

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[mjolnir]

Now I get it, you are using power/damage instead of the common damage/power....

===========================

I'll list more tomorrow but on first look I do see some errors in there:

a)
Kusari Dessie powerplant
1400k/95
so missile takes 64% of the powerplant
vs
Bret Dessie powerplant
2250/120

66%

b) tracking range is what it says it is, range at which you can track the target, actual range is (muzzle velocity + motor acceleration*motor lifetime/2) * missile lifetime
====================

Anyway here are all cruiser and gb missiles listed from the spreadsheet, I'll post them in some nicer format tomorrow
GB:

Liberty, Rheinland, Kusari, Bretonia, Order, Basic, GRN, Council, BDs

damage: 7000 8200 6600 8500 7500 6400 7800 7200 9000
energy:200k 250k 170k 270k 210k 200k 230k 200k 300k
range:1531 1531 1487 1531 1531 1531 1531 1531
refire 0.33 0,33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33
speed 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145
efficencty:3,5 3,28 3,88 3,148 3,57 3,2 3,39 3,6 3


Cruiser missiles:

Liberty, Rhienland, Kusari, Bretonia, Hessian, Order, Basic, GRN, COuncil
damage: 130 180 110 170 185 160 110 175 140
energy: 1000 1600 900 1500 1700 1350 1000 1600 1200
seeker range: 5500 5000 6000 5500 5000 5700 5500 5500 5500
refire: 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1
speed: 115 105 125 115 105 115 115 105 115
efficency 13,00 11,25 12,22 11,33 10,88 11,85 11,00 10,94 11,67
turning: 0.4 0,35 0,45 0,4 0,35 0.4 0.4

===============

Generally both were supposed to take same about the same ammount of power of the respective cruiser/gb that uses them.


EDIT:

This one does need a comment before I head off:

Here you want to take that away and give the smaller on the exact same firepower by giving it vastly superior weaponry. That takes away the Bret GB's firepower/turret advantage..

What the hell are you talking about right there?

The missile does much more damage, and Bret GB has 6 turrets it can fire compared to those 3. What firepower advantage did I take away?

Yes I know exactly how it's to fly both ships as it was me who changed the Bret GB forward gun, upped the armor and added bats/bots.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Derkylos]

The ship's powerplant shouldn't have any factor in the balance of the weaponry. What if the Ku Missiles were to go on the Ku Explorer rather than the Ku GB? Explorer has the exact same power and recharge of the Bret GB, but now its missiles are extremely better. And it takes about a FOURTH of the power core, not 'just a bit less than half.' Not a third.. A fourth of the Ku Explorer's powercore.

This.

You cannot balance a ship's weapons with respect to the ship, because people are gonna take it and mount it on other ships. A Kusari GB missile should remain balanced be it mounted on a Kusari GB, an Explorer, a Zoner GB, or even, a Bretonian GB.

If weapon energy use is balanced based on ship cores, you may as well make everything have the same core and all guns do the same damage, the only differences being in weapon speed, armor and ship agility...I hardly see that working.

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[Dab]

a)
Kusari Dessie powerplant
1400k/95
so missile takes 64% of the powerplant
vs
Bret Dessie powerplant
2250/120

66%

b) Kusari GB missile uses 42.5% of the GB energy
Bret GB missile uses 45% of the GB energy

Salamanca II uses 0.00753% of Titan's energy.
Kraken Type 2 uses 0.01105% of Sabre's energy.

See the difference? You have Kusari GB take about equal amounts from its own power that the Bret GB takes from its power.

However, the Salamanca and Krakens take vastly different amounts of power from there ship. You've balanced the Salamanca and Kraken as more damage, more energy usage. They have similar power-usage per unit of damage, but different percentage of the ship's power core per shot..

On the GBs you have the two missiles have VASTLY differing power-usage per unit of damage. With that they take the same percentage of their own ship's power cores. So its the opposite from the fighters.

Kusari's damage 1 damage for every 25.75 power use.
Bret's damage 1 damage for every 31.76 power use.
- - -
Salamanca II damage 1 damage for every 0.2132 power use.
Kraken Type 2 damage 1 damage for every 0.2266 power use.

Everything I say here is still related straight to the Dest power usage, same as the GBs.. You just pointed out that which I didn't bother too.. Its the same problem with the destroyers that there are with the GBs. The entire fact that you are balancing it on percentage of the energy is the entire problem.. Weapons shouldn't have to do with the ship's powercore, but with their power usage and damage. More on that below.

b) tracking range is what it says it is, range at which you can track the target, actual range is (muzzle velocity + motor acceleration*motor lifetime/2) * missile lifetime

When I wrote max range, I meant max range at which you could fire and it still track. To make this clear, changed to 'Maximum Targeting Range.'

Anyway here are all cruiser and gb missiles listed from the spreadsheet, I'll post them in some nicer format tomorrow
GB:

Liberty, Rheinland, Kusari, Bretonia, Order, Basic, GRN, Council, BDs

damage: 7000 8200 6600 8500 7500 6400 7800 7200 9000
energy:200k 250k 170k 270k 210k 200k 230k 200k 300k
range:1531 1531 1487 1531 1531 1531 1531 1531
refire 0.33 0,33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33 0.33
speed 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145
efficencty:3,5 3,28 3,88 3,148 3,57 3,2 3,39 3,6 3
Cruiser missiles:

Liberty, Rhienland, Kusari, Bretonia, Hessian, Order, Basic, GRN, COuncil
damage: 130 180 110 170 185 160 110 175 140
energy: 1000 1600 900 1500 1700 1350 1000 1600 1200
seeker range: 5500 5000 6000 5500 5000 5700 5500 5500 5500
refire: 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1 0,1
speed: 115 105 125 115 105 115 115 105 115
efficency 13,00 11,25 12,22 11,33 10,88 11,85 11,00 10,94 11,67
turning: 0.4 0,35 0,45 0,4 0,35 0.4 0.4

===============

Generally both were supposed to take same about the same ammount of power of the respective cruiser/gb that uses them.

I'd like to point everyone's attention to the bolded efficiency listings. The first number is Kusari's missiles, the second is Bretonia's. This is a perfect example of what I'm saying is wrong. The gigantic differences in energy efficiency negating the larger cap's higher energy core advantage.

And the destroyer's stats speak for themselves..

EDIT:
This one does need a comment before I head off:
What the hell are you talking about right there?

The missile does much more damage, and Bret GB has 6 turrets it can fire compared to those 3. What firepower advantage did I take away?

Yes I know exactly how it's to fly both ships as it was me who changed the Bret GB forward gun, upped the armor and added bats/bots.

Firepower is a ship's ability to dish out more damage in less time for less energy. By increasing the Ku GB's missile power efficiency by so much, it has the Bret GB's firepower ability gimped. It can't dish out more damage for less energy than Ku GB. Ku GB can dish out much more damage than the Bret GB can in terms of missiles, and for MUCH less energy costs. Percentage of energy core doesn't matter, but raw energy usage does. What I'm saying is that I think the entire idea of missiles using X% of a cap's core is flawed and unbalanced, for it takes away the higher energy cap advantage of the larger ships. An advantage those larger caps desperately need.

I'll make a chart on what I think would be better tonight or tomorrow. I'll keep it so missiles still take ~40-60% of a cap's core to fire, but they will still be balanced in the power/damage (or damage/power, both mean the same thing, just one uses normal numbers, other uses decimals) ratio.

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[mjolnir]

Firepower is a ship's ability to dish out more damage in less time for less energy. By increasing the Ku GB's missile power efficiency by so much, it has the Bret GB's firepower ability gimped. It can't dish out more damage for less energy than Ku GB. Ku GB can dish out much more damage than the Bret GB can in terms of missiles, and for MUCH less energy costs. Percentage of energy core doesn't matter, but raw energy usage does. What I'm saying is that I think the entire idea of missiles using X% of a cap's core is flawed and unbalanced, for it takes away the higher energy cap advantage of the larger ships. An advantage those larger caps desperately need.

Bret GB and Kusari GB can fire missile at same rate. Bret one does 8500 damage and Kusari 6600. On top of that since normal turrets use about same ammount of energy the Bret one can fire more guns (which it has). I still don't see where it "lost" the firepower advantage.

================================================

As you may have heard from Blodo we had a Kusari Dessie vs Bret Dessie fight after you posted this.

The Bret Dessie won, but not by that much. We both scored some 4 missile hits on each other since we could fire the missiles at same rate. With Cap IV armors this resulted in Kusari Dessie loosing all guns before it died while Bret one had guns on about 2/3 health.

As you said Bret Dessie missile does 170k damage, kusari 110, now if they did same damage for same energy. The Bret Dessie would loose the advantage it has now

===========================================

We also tested ramming fighters with cruiser missiles. It's close to impossible if the fighter/bomber doesn't ram you. While ramming GBs is rather easy.

Now if some cruiser was able to fire 2 missiles at once, it could insta-kill bombers this way from full shield, and basically disarm GB in one go.

Which is why the cruiser missiles were set to the energy use they have => 1 missile at a time

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Dab]

Bret GB and Kusari GB can fire missile at same rate. Bret one does 8500 damage and Kusari 6600. On top of that since normal turrets use about same ammount of energy the Bret one can fire more guns (which it has). I still don't see where it "lost" the firepower advantage.

Yes, Bret does 1,900 more damage.. But they both use the same percentage of their energy bar to fire each missile. So what, then, is the point to the Bret GB having higher power? Its getting more damage for that used power, yes, but not as much damage as Kusari is getting for that power. If we were to multiply it so that the Kusari missile used the same energy to fire (270,000), the Kusari GB Missile turret would do 10,500 damage if it were to use 270,000 energy per shot, but keep its same energy efficiency. Bret GB uses 270,000 energy to do 8,500 damage.. Difference of 2,000 damage, which is a very large amount.

The whole idea, and I've said this many a times, is that the idea of missiles using the same energy percentage is a bad idea. I completely agree with missiles taking just over half the energy bar to fire, but that doesn't mean the energy-to-damage ratios should be so different. It should take the same percentage of the energy bar, yes, but at the same time, keep the same or similar damage-to-energy ratio.

As you may have heard from Blodo we had a Kusari Dessie vs Bret Dessie fight after you posted this.

The Bret Dessie won, but not by that much. We both scored some 4 missile hits on each other since we could fire the missiles at same rate. With Cap IV armors this resulted in Kusari Dessie loosing all guns before it died while Bret one had guns on about 2/3 health.

As you said Bret Dessie missile does 170k damage, kusari 110, now if they did same damage for same energy. The Bret Dessie would loose the advantage it has now

No, the Bret Dest would regain its advantage. Its already lost that advantage, because the Ku Dest missiles does more damage-to-energy than the Bret Dest missiles. If we were to upgrade the Bret Dest to the same damage for the same energy, it'd be 183,370 for 1,500,000 damage. 13,333 more, but have the same damage-to-energy ratio of Kusari. Kusari Destroyer takes 900,000, Bret takes 1,500,000.. But the damage isn't taking the same ratio. Bret missile takes 1.667x more energy to fire.. It does only 1.545x more damage. When speaking of numbers this large, thats a big difference. Plus, the ratio is even worse for the Gunboats. They are severely mismatched.

We also tested ramming fighters with cruiser missiles. It's close to impossible if the fighter/bomber doesn't ram you. While ramming GBs is rather easy.

Now if some cruiser was able to fire 2 missiles at once, it could insta-kill bombers this way from full shield, and basically disarm GB in one go.

Which is why the cruiser missiles were set to the energy use they have => 1 missile at a time

As I said, I have no problem with the limit of firing 1 missile at a time. But while we do that, we still need to keep the same damage-to-energy ratio so ships are balanced. And don't forget the Kusari Destroyer's missile turret is better at tracking, and can hit fighters and bombers more often, and especially Gunboats. On top of that you have the best, and spectacular energy efficiency. Refer to your chart, the Kusari Destroyer Missile turret's efficiency is 12.22 while Bret Destroyer Missile turret's efficiency is 11.33. The only thing worse I can find is the Liberty Destroyer missile turret, which is 13.00 (BIG problem with that one..).

I'll be working on a new chart with what I think would balance them out today.

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[mjolnir]

The whole idea, and I've said this many a times, is that the idea of missiles using the same energy percentage is a bad idea. I completely agree with missiles taking just over half the energy bar to fire, but that doesn't mean the energy-to-damage ratios should be so different. It should take the same percentage of the energy bar, yes, but at the same time, keep the same or similar damage-to-energy ratio.

:wacko:

Using same energy percentage is a bad idea... but actually it's not so bad idea... uhh.

Refer to your chart, the Kusari Destroyer Missile turret's efficiency is 12.22 while Bret Destroyer Missile turret's efficiency is 11.33. The only thing worse I can find is the Liberty Destroyer missile turret, which is 13.00 (BIG problem with that one..).

Yes they are, how is that a BIG problem. If I go 1vs1 with any of those ships. Those with high damaging missiles have and advantage. Since 110k damage vs 170k quite some. Yet when you have 30% left of small cruiser powerplant you can almost not fire a razor. With the big powerplant you can fire tons of things.

So you do more damage and can fire more after that.

If we turn it around, the "heavier" missiles should according to you do more damage at same efficiency as the lighter ones, what do the light ones have as an advantage then? The heavy ones are simply better.

Remember 4.84, there you had basic missile turret doing 3.5k damage and using some 40k energy, then you had dragonfly that did 5k damage for 90k energy => extremely worse efficency. Now what did people mount if they could? Dragonfly, cause more "concentrated" damage is better and saves you slots.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.