This thread is about cruiser battle razors. Gunboat battle razors can be used in a pinch against bombers, which is stated in the infocard.
Edit: How does an armoured bomber get instant killed by 2 razors? The gunships you have faced probably have a 2x pulse 2x battle razor loadout. Two razors does not kill a bomber in one volley, that's for sure.
NOTE: Had to split into two different posts because the amount of quotes. Mods, don't merge, or it'll break the quotes.
' Wrote:putting the fact that i havent bothered reading the rest of the thread, do you mean to say that 3 bombers went up against a kusari destroyer, and not a single one had a CD, and to top that off, they got raped by dual battle razors?
If you haven't bothered reading the thread, don't post, because you have no idea what you're talking about. As this entire post of yours shows quite well.
All three of us had a CD. Problem is, CDs don't fix everything. Crusiers/Dests don't have to EK to hit something. Wonderful thing called reverse thrust and turret view make it possible to turn, shoot, yet still dodge SNs with thruster and normal view when they see it fired.
' Wrote:dab, i aint played the game in a while, but even -I- aint stupid enough to joust a destroyer thats the size of a gunboat, and one that can dish out ****LOADs of damage if used correctly, neither am i stupid enough not to use CDs against such a ship. if you want, i can offer you lessons on how to fly bombers again:lol:
Again; You obviously didn't read the thread. Not once did we joust the destroyer. None of us jousted it, for we have plenty of experience fighting capships. Also, as stated above, we did use CDs. It wasn't able to EK, but that doesn't fix everything. You need to drop your arrogance at the door and consider the possibility that this wasn't the result of people not knowing how to fly bombers. For someone who seems to readily point out my ego as a flaw and make fun of it, you sure seem to have quite a big one yourself, topped off with an arrogance that makes you think no one can possibly be as good, as smart, or know as much as you. Not a good mentality when trying to balance something.
' Wrote:now, to address the last few posts: nova torps arent as bad as they were in 4.84. sure, chances of killing your own guys is still high, but its MUCH lower than what it was in 4.84. why? cuz CDs wont deflect/blow them up, and the targeted ship has to select, aim, and fire a salvo at the incoming torp instead, or use flaks. nova torps are -excellent- in raping caps, however they are useless against fighters and bomber (obviously).
CDs do deflect/blow them up. I killed three Corsair Praetorians in a single fight just by CDing them everytime they went for a Nova run on a battleship. Furthermore, Novas can't track for ****.. They still have to be fired just as close as a Supernova except against battleships. Any cruiser can outfly a Nova torpedo. And then they are also completely useless against shields.
' Wrote:making a snac faster is like inviting rape to a cup of tea at your house. actually, its worse. its like inviting a hillbilly over to your parent's house to introduce him to the family as your fiancee. dont get me wrong, ill love it since ill be able to score more kills with the snac on fighters and bombers, but i have a teensy weensy feeling alot of the people wont like that:lol:
I agree with you here, SNACs do -not- need a speed increase. Battle razors, however, do need a speed decrease so they can't hit bombers/fighters.
' Wrote:I do believe there were CDs involved, and jousting was not involved. No one is advocating an increase in the speed of SNs, merely a reduction in the speed of BRs.
As for Novas on bombers...yno. I had a SN/Nova bomber after people started with "yay, Novas don't suck any more"...well, the most useful thing you can do with a Nova is...umm...make a pretty pattern? Rape the guns/wings off an NPC? They have very little use when bombarding capships, and especially so in the case of destroyers who simply use their thrusters to evade them.
Please read this quote Frozen.
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Well these seems to be an awful lot of assumptions going on. The top among them is that people think we jousted a Kusari destroyer.. We didn't, and why anyone would ever think we did, I haven't a clue. Especially since Derkylos already said back twenty-thirty posts that we DID NOT joust the cruiser.. He was a spectator in that fight, he didn't die, he didn't have to fight.. If this was just people rambling about losing a fight, why would he agree with me? Or Blodo? Or Blunt? I will say this once; This has nothing to do with the fact that we lost the fight. If I were to try to get a ship nerfed everytime I lost a fight, you'd see a heck of a lot more threads than the THREE I've made. One about the Red/Ku Bombers, one about cruiser and GB missiles (none of which I died to, I made that thread based on testing and checking out stats), and then this one. This is no more than many people have made since the start of the beta testing.
I'm disadvantaged by the fact that in terms of combat balance, I cannot speak of something or even know it exists until it shows up in front of me. I'd never have known Battle Razors were so good against bombers/fighters if I'd never have to face a destroyer/cruiser that was using them in such a manner. If I were to be flying an exceptionally good ship and found I could utterly rape my opponent with no effort, I'd make a thread about either the overpowering of the ship I was flying, or the underpowered ship of my opponent (depending which it might be), and the changes needed to balance the two. I make threads based on issues I find in-game during the public beta testing. This was the intended purpose of the public beta testing, yet many of you seem to think that balance issues shouldn't be brought up because the dev team didn't see them. Well the fact is that the dev team can't catch everything, or they may have different opinions than others. I'm on the dev team and I can say, there are a very wide range of opinions there. Its the community's job to find things the dev team missed. Now I could've just said 'this is a problem, fix it' like so many others have so far, but I provided a solution as well that would fix the problem, but still give the cruiser BR's ability to hit GBs/GSs without much a change. (If you can't hit a GB/GS in a cruiser with a BR from under 800m when it travels at 400m/s, thats not the BR's fault.. Especially considering the size of the BR is 75m across.)
Jure Wrote:Look here Dab... How tha hell did ku desy even turn around and joust your friend bomber is beyond me... Kusari Desy is a prime target for Nova torpedos, just hit it say 4 times and it's out of weapons... shields can be dealt via guns or SN... keep it CD'd at all times.
It didn't have to turn, turret view can easily allow it to hit with a BR. At the same time, the Dest can turn extremely quickly, while the bombers have to circle it to get behind it. So, though it turns slower, the bomber has to cover much more ground while dodging fire to get behind it.
Also, we did keep it CDd at all times. That isn't a fix-all tactic to killing a destroyer. They aren't dependent on Engine kill to win. Lastly; Any destroyer pilot with a brain can dodge a Nova torpedo, and even more have the intelligence to select the nova torp and shoot it before it hits the destroyer.
Jure Wrote:If that fails get a destroyer of your own, all you need is a set of primaries, 1 pulse cannon and 1 bretonian missile. Spamm the missile on every joust. You will be amazed how easy a target that tiny destroyer is.
Did we not already cover this? 'If you can't beat it, buy one of your own' is not a mentally we need or want on this server. Especially since many factions can't buy a destroyer/cruiser. Many factions are limited to gunboats and below. All of which, at present, will get killed by a destroyer/cruiser.
Jure Wrote:And back to Battle Razor, If it's any slower it's useless for it's main task, that is fighting gunboats... and then again if it's used for bombers that's perfectly acceptable since you need 2 of them to hit, when the shieilds are down... I wonder why nobody complains about battleship battle razors that can 1-2 bombers and have a whooping 1600 speed?
Actually, at 400m/s, the BR is still perfectly fine hitting GBs, especially since a GB has to be within 800m to do any damage. On top of that, the cruiser can thrust towards the GB as well, making it a speed of 520m/s (920m/s at current). The GB goes to get close, destroyer thrusts towards GB at the same time, but the time the GB can turn around to get distance again, the destroyer is already right next to it, probably less than 200m distance.. Thats half a second fly time for the BR.. If you can't hit from that distance with a 400m/s speed weapon that is 75m in diameter, something is very very wrong with your aim.
Jure Wrote:Those are all while being primarily anti-gb weapons perfectly acceptable anti-bomber weapons, since some gb's are bomber sized and some bombers are gb sized... Learn to counter the destroyer with a proper ship, say a destroyer of your own... The smaller the target more vulnerable to missiles it is. So word of the day would be "NOVA".
As said before, 'If you can't beat it, buy one of your own' isn't something we want on Disco. Never have, and has been pointed out by countless people over the years. Furthermore, as I said, over half the factions in this game are not allowed to use cruisers and battleships. So what you suggest can't be done. Nor SHOULD it be done. Bombers and fighters shouldn't be pushed under the rug simply because we have cruisers now. This game was built around using fighters, why should the fighters and bombers be the most useless ships? Every class should be balanced to the next. That isn't happening right now.
Tenacity Wrote:I was shooting at him with 15 order cruiser turrets, which have 1000m/s speed - the fastest weapons available to us, solaris turrets aside.
At 500-800m range, I landed maybe one shot out of every five on him while he was actively dodging...
You're failing to take many factors into account.. First, the size of your carrier.. It may say 500-800m range, but if he's in front of you, thats really ~1600m for the turrets you have at the back of your ship. And even with that, the fact that you couldn't hit him with guns with a 1000m/s speed from a distance under 1000m.. Well, thats not the gun's fault.. I could hit a GB from that range with a Battlerazor, especially these 800m/s ones, with ease.. There should be nothing stopping you from doing it with 1000m/s speed guns. Maybe you had a mix of guns with different projectile speeds that threw off your aim, or you simply haven't had much experience fighting gunboats at the moment.. But I've easily managed to kill a GB with cruiser weapons.
Cosmos Wrote:Bombers have 2 uber weapons,
Caps now have 1 uber weapon VS bombers
The bombers dont like it.
all's fair if you ask me.
The bomber's 'uber weapons' don't instantly kill the capship once its shield is down. They are also both VERY slow, and the bomber takes a lot of damage when it gets close enough to hit with it. The caps have an extremely fast instant-kill weapon with a 75m diameter, making it very hard to miss any bomber close enough to SN or Nova the cap. The cruiser/dest has no counter right now.
On top of that, the cruiser's 'uber weapon' kills in one hit, but takes 1/5 of the power core.. Meaning it can be fired 5 times (6-7 counting the regen between) at the target.. Supernova can be fired once before you're out of energy. Then its a 20-25 second wait.
Caribe Wrote:I'M wondering how the heck can you ONE shot kill something in this game. At least it SHOULD take TWO shots. One for the shield and one for the hull.
One shot means one hit on hull and it kills you. Supernovas are one-hit weapons, but that doesn't mean it takes shield and hull at the same time. If it can take you from full hull to no hull in a single hit, its a one-hit weapon. Shields are very very easy to drop.
Asguardian Wrote:Maybe the bomber pilots just weren't that good? unsure.gif
We've been fighting capships for a very very long time. We have plenty of experience doing it, and we've managed to do it very well. This had nothing to do with our skill. Tell me, can you hit a bomber with a fighter weapon? If the answer is yes, you can hit with a cruiser battlerazor, because its projectile speed is even faster. You might miss once or twice at first, but you have plenty of energy to fire again.
Asguardian Wrote:Like Jinx said, the Razor turrets are quite inefficient; only being good against gunboats mainly. If you can snipe a damn bomber with it, you're just a damn good shot. If the bombers are silly enough to be within sniping distance, thats their fault.
Did you read anyone's post in this thread? If you can snipe a bomber, its because of the 800m/s speed, not the aim.. And if the bombers are silly enough to get within sniping distance? Sniping distance in this case is 800m. Supernova can't hit the destroyer if fired outside of 500m unless the cruiser pilot has no idea what he is doing. So you're saying we should die if we ever try to actually hit our targets?
Jinx Wrote:how to hit a bomber in a cruiser with a 800ms gun? - only when the bomber is coming really close .... the projectile size of the razor is as small as any other projectile ( except the flak, which is as large as a large transport ) - so at around 500-1000 range - a bomber is fairly SAFE from them.... provided he dodges a bit of course.
Only when the bomber is really close.. Well since we have to be within 500m to hit the destroyer/cruiser with a Supernova, we don't really have much a choice.. And efficiency has nothing to do with this thread in the least bit.. Against other caps, yes, efficiency matters.. But when you can kill your opponent in a single hit, do you really think the efficiency matters? Especially since BRs take very little energy, a cruiser can fire a single BR 7 or so times before finally running out of energy. Bomber fires once and the energy is gone.
Jinx Wrote:bombers have an easy life - and thats a fact. - their main defense is their agility and size. capital ships need a whole lot more skill than bomberpilots to harm each other. - so of course a 280ms supernova has an easier time hitting a destroyer than a 800ms razor has hitting a bomber - that is - unless both ships were the same size and speed.
furthermore - a bomber can thrust to 200 and accelerate the SN to 480ms - the destroyer can practicly do the same with the razor 940ms - but due to its lower speed, thats of no great use for that matter.
Need I say again about turret view and the fact that destroyers can thrust and turn as fast as a bomber can circle? A cruiser has to turn around.. Okay.. A bomber has to turn and fly 1000m to get behind the cruiser. Pretty big difference in the distance covered. The bomber is faster, yes, but not that fast that it can dodge so easily. Bomber can accelerate SN to 480m/s... Only if jousting the capship and thruster at it, making them the easiest hit for a BR that there can be. So what you are saying is that, if you want to hit the cruiser, you have to be a perfect target for this insta-killing weapon, deal with it.
And if you think it takes more skill for a cruiser to hit a cruiser than for a bomber to hit another bomber, you obviously don't get in to too many bomber v bomber fights.. Try SNACing a bomber with a bomber.. Its much harder to hit than a cruiser BRing or Mortaring another cruiser.
Also, bomber moves at 200m/s.. Destroyer at 120m/s. SNAC at 280m/s, BR at 800m/s.
Thats makes the bomber 60% faster than the destroyer. The Battle razor is 286% faster than the SNAC. So no, its not that much easier to hit a cruiser with a SNAC than for a cruiser to hit with the BR. Not to mention turret-view allowing it to be done very easily.
Note to everyone else, because its become very obvious, and some have even admitted it; Do not post if you aren't willing to read the thread. When in a balance discussion, reading the first post and nothing else is not going to work. If you feel your opinion is warranted or necessary, than reading the rest of the thread is necessary as well.
Quote:You're failing to take many factors into account.. First, the size of your carrier.. It may say 500-800m range, but if he's in front of you, thats really ~1600m for the turrets you have at the back of your ship. And even with that, the fact that you couldn't hit him with guns with a 1000m/s speed from a distance under 1000m.. Well, thats not the gun's fault.. I could hit a GB from that range with a Battlerazor, especially these 800m/s ones, with ease.. There should be nothing stopping you from doing it with 1000m/s speed guns. Maybe you had a mix of guns with different projectile speeds that threw off your aim, or you simply haven't had much experience fighting gunboats at the moment.. But I've easily managed to kill a GB with cruiser weapons.
All my weapons are the same projectile speed (all 1000m/s, all the same damn guns even). He was 500-800m -below- me, meaning most of my weapons were within that same range, the ones at the front and back of the ship only slightly further away.
And it sure as hell isnt 'user error', I know how to aim, if I can hit NPC fighters with those guns I should be able to hit a gunboat 5x as large at the same distance, especially when firing at it's largest side.
Still, fact remains, Over several minutes with him actively dodging attacks from ranges varying 500 meters to 1200 meters, I wasnt even able to get his shields down with 15 cruiser turrets (though admittedly only about 8 of them can fire any one direction). With 199m/s latency (pinged myself, and had him and another player ping me, all the same), that shouldnt be happening.
Leave em. They are in efficient and slow to turn. Yes, they have a 800ms velocity but if you cut in close and just dodge the turret itself cannot track you.
I am doing to have to repeat the same rule of thought the bomber crowd has used vs. caps for a long time, get escorts. If you think about taking down something cruiser or above, you are going to need some friends.
As far as a weapon being bad because it can insta kill a bomber if you get a lucky shot? Hasn't the same argument been used for the snac vs. fighters.... and now low level GB? I will give some good advise that has been distributed freely by the bomber pilots of this server, dodge.
Yes, if you get hit by a Capital ship's primary armament at close range with multiple rounds at the same, you may explode....
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
' Wrote:Leave em. They are in efficient and slow to turn. Yes, they have a 800ms velocity but if you cut in close and just dodge the turret itself cannot track you.
I am doing to have to repeat the same rule of thought the bomber crowd has used vs. caps for a long time, get escorts. If you think about taking down something cruiser or above, you are going to need some friends.
As far as a weapon being bad because it can insta kill a bomber if you get a lucky shot? Hasn't the same argument been used for the snac vs. fighters.... and now low level GB? I will give some good advise that has been distributed freely by the bomber pilots of this server, dodge.
Yes, if you get hit by a Capital ship's primary armament at close range with multiple rounds at the same, you may explode....
There were three of us.. Another who didn't read the whole thread before posting..
And no, if you cut in close and dodge, you dodge the BR, but get raped by the stock weapons (normal turrets). If you get to range to dodge those, the Battlerazor kills you even faster.. See the problem? Too far and you can't hit the ship, too close and you get torn to pieces, middle ground gets you kill instantly. And its not a lucky shot. Lucky is hitting the bomber with 400m/s speed guns.. Hitting them with a projectile 75m thick with a speed of 800m/s is not luck.
You are assuming that the person getting fired on is the one who should be firing the SNAC. There is no reason that every ship attacking the Capital should be attacking. The one getting attacked should be dodging like hell to avoid fire while the others (2 or more) should be laying waste. Following that tactic makes the BR pretty much useless vs fast moving ships. Now if pilots start realizing that turning them off all together makes secondary fire pin-point, bombers are really screwed.
You need teamwork to take down a cap. Everyone can't just flail about and fire all at once.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Matt, we were using teamwork. We WERE dodging when he switched to us. But he can still hit us. If we move to 1000m range, he switches target. But you have to come close to SNAC eventually, and he simply switched to whoever was closest. You are assuming we don't know how to fight a capship.. We do, we've been doing it for over a year. Over three in my case. I know what I'm doing. I got killed by a battleship last week because I got too close.. I didn't complain about it and ask for a nerf, because it was my fault. This, however, was not.
I agree with Dab here. We can't lose fighters and bombers just because cruisers need an overpowered gun to deal with gunboats. Use your bloody turrets and learn how to fight with gunboats. And the definition below needs to be revised in my opinion as its last part makes little sense to me.
Cruiser "Battle Razor" Tachyon-Antimatter Cannon
Battle Razor fires portions of antimatter surrounded by a powerful tachyon field for acceleration and more stability. Antimatter deals unmatchable amount of damage to hull of the target ship if its shields are down. This weapon is most effective against small capital ships and slow bombers or those with lazy pilots.
Slow bombers or those with lazy pilots - What does this mean at all? Were not the battle razors meant to act as cap vs cap weapons? The motive behind this instant change is what I want to know.
Below are the stats:
Refire-Rate: 4,00 = 0,25 Shots per second
Power-Usage: 350.000,00
Projectile-Speed: 800
LifeTime: 1,90 = 1.520 Range
Hull-Damage: 140.000,00 = 35.000 per second
Shield-Damage: 70.000,00 = 17.500 per second
35k hull damage with 800ms velocity? It almost competes and overpowers the SN that is the primary and single effective gun of a bomber, while the BR is only one of the guns a cruiser has.
Do we really want everybody start flying cruisers now? What about the factions restricted to smaller ships then? Are we going to leave them starve to death?
35k plus 800ms is well out of order if you ask me gents and someone needs to fix this. They shouldn't be able to snipe bombers as easily as they are mentioned to be.
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